Queen cages for forcing a brood break

[Lesgold]

Hi Folks,

I am after a bit of advice in relation to queen cages to force brood breaks in my hives. As I live in an area where the queen continues to lay during the winter, forcing a brood break will be an advantage when varroa hits in order to help the control of this pest. I would be interested to hear and see the types of cages that you guys use or have access to. Any reports, opinions or advice would be appreciated. I did try a push in cage last season but was not impressed with it. The queens pheromones were not spread sufficiently throughout the hive and queen cells were produced. After about a week the queen also escaped from this cage and this concerned me. I did see an impressive Italian design for a queen catcher and a cage that is cut into a brood frame but this setup is expensive and not readily available in Australia.

[Occam]

I'm interested to see how this goes for you Les. Have you considered making one with hardware cloth? Or would a standard queen cage like they come in when one has one shipped work?

[Lesgold]

Hi Occam

I was thinking about designing and making one once I get a bit of advice. I?ll see if I can put up an image of an Italian design that I like. It has holes that are large enough for nurse bees to get through but the queen is contained. This would enable the bees to tend the queen and also spread her pheromones throughout the hive. Most of the cage designs that I have seen tend to have holes that are too small for a bee to get through. The other aspect of this design is that it actually fits within a brood frame. (Some of the comb is cut out to recess the cage into). This would also be preferable in my opinion. Once the cage is removed, the bees would build comb to repair the gap.

[Lesgold]

This is what I was considering. The queen would be accessible from both sides of the frame. What do you guys think?

[Ben Framed]

Les you might find the following topic interesting. We had a three page discussion on brood break a few years ago, with some points made by Van From Arkansas, TheHoneyPump and other heavy hitters.


https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=53778.msg486167#msg486167

[Occam]

Sacrificing a queen excluder to make several queen cages with wouldn't be a bad investment, I imagine an excluder could be used for several cages therefore several hives. Could even be permanently attached to the frame with a hole drilled through the top for putting her in/letting her out.

[beesnweeds]

I use a deep frame isolation cage.

https://www.betterbee.com/queen-rearing-supplies/FIC1-Deep-Frame-Isolation-Cage.asp

[Occam]

So you put her in the frame cage and keep her there until there isn't any brood elsewhere in the hive, then release her and remove the frame with brood that was in the cage to create the brood break? Am I understanding that correctly?

[The15thMember]

Yes, Occam, that's correct.  And if you leave that frame until it's capped and then remove it, you'll trap a lot of the varroa in that frame, since there is no other brood in the hive.  I've done this several times, although I've had some problems with my setup.  A few years ago when I first tried this, they didn't make frame isolation cages for mediums (I use all 8-frame mediums), so I took a plastic queen excluder, cut it into pieces, and used them to isolate 2 frames up against the wall of a brood box.  So I had a 2 frame wide QX piece on the top of the brood box, an identical piece on the bottom of the brood box, and then a piece that I would slide in vertically between frames 6 and 7, surrounding frames 7 and 8 in QX material.  The problem was that I had queens escape this makeshift isolation frequently, since my vertical piece didn't fit the box perfectly.  Also, some of my bees display hygienic traits, where they pull brood that is very infested with varroa, and with those colonies, I could never get them to fully cap the frames, because they'd pull the bad brood and the queen would re-lay, so the brood wasn't all the same age.  I haven't done a "trapping treatment" (that's what I call it) in the past year or so because of these problems.  But I'm thinking about getting an isolation cage at some point and then trying it again.     

[Lesgold]

I started experimenting yesterday by cutting up a plastic queen excluder as mentioned by Occam. I was able to get one made up but had a few issues with the construction technique and design. I will make a few subtle changes and then post it in the ?Today I Made? tread if I get the design organised. I want to keep the construction as simple as possible. I saw the deep frame isolation frame when I did a bit of research. It also has some merit and would be simple to use. It would mean no handling of the queen and would be a quick solution to isolating her. Unfortunately they are not readily available in Australia and the cost is pretty high. Things may change as varroa ramps up and suppliers get into the swing of selling all sorts of gear related to the control of the pest. The main design constraints that I have for the queen cage are:

1) It must be able to be positioned on a brood frame in the middle of the brood box
2) Nurse bees must have access to the queen from both sides of the frame
3) The queen must be able to be placed or removed from the frame with minimal handling
4) I would like to make the whole brood box broodless to make varroa treatment more effective
5) Catching the queen, putting her into a cage and positioning it on a frame should be a simple task that takes very little effort.

That?s my thinking anyway. Not sure if I?m on the right path but I?m sure that you guys will put me straight if I?m heading off course.

Phillip, I will have a look at that thread a little later. Thanks for that. From the training course that I attended, it looks as though brood breaks are going to be another important control measure for tackling varroa.

[Ben Framed]

Les you might find the following topic interesting. We had a three page discussion on brood break a few years ago, with some points made by Van From Arkansas, TheHoneyPump and other heavy hitters.


https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=53778.msg486167#msg486167

Phillip, I will have a look at that thread a little later. Thanks for that.

You are welcome Les, I highly recommend taking a >close look< from start to finish. (From the first post to the last)

[Bill Murray]

Les I get what your looking for. I have the same issue as you. I dont know positively because I dont live in these states but a lot of the northern ones get a natural broodbreak every year. I can walk out at any given time in Dec, here and find multiple capped and BAS in all stages in any hive I pick. So I dont really understand the big debate. The debate should be on timing I think.I played with this a little bit and never could get the timing rite. The interesting thing was I lost a good percentage of colonies when done in the fall/winter. That might be due to unexpected cold snap, dont remember, but I shelved it. the ones I tried in late winter had better survival but never got a good spring build up. again shelved. Mr bush and I were talking, and the thinking was in the spring right before the flow. My thinking is already peaking varroa maybe to late. Dont know, havnt tried it yet.

[Lesgold]

Hi Phillip, I read the thread and found it quite interesting. My knowledge of varroa is poor and will slowly develop over time. Part of what I?m doing is to give myself options and learn a bit more over the short time remaining before varroa arrives. Looking at the latest heat map, the pest is now located about 100km to the north and also about the same distance to the south. We have just hit winter and I expect that by the next time I test the bees in the spring, the varroa will be present. Many of you have the luxury of a brood break that occurs during your colder months and gives you potential to treat phoretic mites. I don?t have this type of brood break and therefore my thinking has to change. Will it work? I don?t know. When would I attempt it? No idea there either. I have to be prepared and experiment if need be. Sitting back and just waiting is not an option. Using a queen cage or even confining the queen to one frame will all be considered as part of a management plan. I don?t like the idea of just hitting a hive with chemicals when varroa are detected.

Bill, I?m interested in your thoughts and ideas as we seem to face similar problems in relation to bees. I think you may be right as far as timing is concerned. Would love to hear as many opinions as possible. Another issue that I face is the irregular honey flows we get each year.  Some years will give a spring honey flow while others will have strong flows during the summer. At times, we can have a very good flow occurring during the winter and occasionally we can have a series of flows that can last for 18 months. Last year we had no flows at all which can occur as well.This makes planning and timing more difficult and will require considerable thought.

[Ben Framed]

I know what you mean Les. Fortunately for you all, our friends Down Under, Varroa Destructor has been studied intently in many counties. There is a lot of good information available and Beemaster is no exception! There are tons of helpful information here in the archives,  as well as each posting member ready and willing to help in any way.

Keep up the good work Les!

Phillip

[Occam]

https://beequip.nz/products/queen-cage-frame


Not sure if this is any help to you Les but I happened on it today

[Lesgold]

I do like that. Thanks Occam. I reckon it will end up in Australia quite quickly. The price is reasonable as well. I hope that OAV becomes an option here as it would keep treatment options at a reasonable cost.

[Bill Murray]

Bill, I?m interested in your thoughts and ideas as we seem to face similar problems in relation to bees.

So, I made a chart up a while back kinda like Randy Oliver did for out west. And according to that my lowest bee population was in Dec. heading into Jan.(  Average temps high of 63, Average Low of 39) My peak bee population Maxes out in mid June and consistently drops from there till pollen starts in Jan. But about mid Aug. is when my mite population is peaked, if i treat in Jan. It drops to nothing into march then constantly raises till peak. My thought a while back was to take advantage of the natural decline in bee population, at the same time the mite loads were falling and do the brood break, now here is where Im not smart enough to correlate this. I lost a lot of bees that year. was it because of weather, mites population vs bees. was there just not enough bees going into late Nov/DEC. Maybe I should have did this in aug instead of sept. My whole goal was to skip the Jan treatment. I install my first bait supers March 1 then dont pull until July.  IDK maybe if I had more  I guess my issue here is when to make the brood break? if the bees wernt flying practically every day of the year you would have longer living bees and it wouldnt matter. If we didnt have snap freezes for 2-3 weeks it wouldnt matter.

I have said for many years the broodbreak is a vitally important factor on the trail to treatment free. Along with other factors. All Im trying to accomplish is treat once a year instead of 2. I dont think loosing 30 to 40 percent of my colonies every year and replacing is an option either.

I havnt found the answer yet, Food for thought.

[Lesgold]

Interesting Bill. Next month is our coldest month and our winter temperatures are almost the same as yours. Pollen is still around for the bees at the moment but is in shorter supply next month although there is more than enough to keep the bees going. Things pick up in the last month of winter where pollen is readily available and some nectar starts coming in. It did my head in for a while doing the old northern to southern hemisphere season conversion but I now understand what you are saying. Next year I will have honey coming in throughout the summer months so I?m not sure when I would make the brood break. The experts say that the first few years are going to be hard and we may have to treat 4 or 5 times a year until things settle down. Not something that I?m looking forward to. OAV sounds like an ideal way to treat hives in conjunction with a brood break but it is illegal for us to use it at the moment. It may eventually be approved but that could take years. Some of the other treatments are quite expensive and many of them can?t be used with supers on. If I?m lucky, next honey season may be my last to run treatment free. After that, the game starts.