Supersedure

[mat]

Queens from supersedure are considered the best. I let two of my hives to supersedure after unsuccesful requeening. Actually they accepted the queens, let them lay and then decided to supersedure. The new queens are really beautiful, big and lay like crazy. I wonder if there is a way to make them supersedure every year instead of requeening with "stranger" queen. In my other hive, new this year they also decided to replace the queen which I introduced several weeks ago, and she was laying nicely. But for some reason they didn' t like her. Is it possibile that bees can sense if a queen is not mated properly, and has not enough semen.
So in this last hive there was an nice capped queen cell three days ago and today the it was opened at the tip, and I saw the new queen (the old was marked and bigger). I could not find the old one but there were eggs. Looks like the old one was laying to very end, because the new one is most probably virgin, because the weather was not good, rain and she was kind of small and running quickly arround the comb. But what suppriced me there was quite a lot of royal jelly in that queen cell. Is that possible that the queen didn't eat all of it, or the warkers started putting some more after she left? Ther was a worker inside when I saw it, but there was no larva. Any input on this topic.

[pdmattox]

As far as getting a hive to supercede as you discussed try clipping the wings or somthing to the queen to make the bees think there is something wrong with her that would probaly work. just my two cents on that. not sure about the royal jelly thing.  
check out mb's site on the capped queen cell thing i don't think she should emerge in 3 day's.
http://bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

[Finsky]

According to Austaralian research if queen is given to another hive too soon after mating bees will replase it 80%.  If queen has been  over 2 weeks in mating nuc after mating, 20% will be replaced.

But to buy new queen and let it die makes no sence.

The posting the queen makes 30% replacement percent.

[joecat]

In my other hive, new this year they also decided to replace the queen which I introduced several weeks ago, and she was laying nicely. But for some reason they didn' t like her.


This happened to me as well a package from this spring
found them queenless and introduced a new queen seems like the first eggs she layed they started supercedure they accepted her to a point they needed eggs so they allowed her to be around. I think from now on if I need a queen I am going to provide a frame of eggs and let them handle the rest.

As far as your question "I wonder if there is a way to make them supersedure every year instead of requeening"

You can make them requeen anytime you like just kill the queen and they will make a new one. you may need to get eggs from another hive if they dont catch it in time that the queen is dead.

[Finsky]

Queens from supersedure are considered the best. .

That is not true at all who ever that considered is.

I have read that swarm cells are the best.  But first thing is that you must change larvae to good one.  If you leave hive's own queen saty in your yard will soon be average level. To keep it high level you must change quueens to best quality. That is bee breeding.  Most beekeepers say that this is BS but breeding is based on selection. If you let then raise their own there is no selection.

When yuu let your girl dog run along streets freely you may surprise what kind of pupies you get soon. It is same with bees.

[mat]

Killing a queen and waiting for new one is not good choice. You are loosing more then three weeks in laying. When they supersedure they keep the old queen to the very end.

[Finsky]

When they supersedure they keep the old queen to the very end.

I keep mating nucs and I take queens there when I need. If you have not queens in reserve it is better bye. To raise a couple own queens from few hives is not wise.

I may use swarm queens but I cahnege them later.

2 years ago I leaved supersedure queens in hives and that was bad idea.  Too many hives were mediums size. They were nice looking but their ability to lay eggs satisfief me at all.

.

[Brian D. Bray]

I find nothing wrong with supercedure queens, I requeen with them that way frequently.  Although it is true that eventually the quality of the queen will suffer over several generations I do not find the quality sufficiently deminished significantly for the first generation.

This is another of those schools of thought or practice.  Some beekeepers swear that queens must be replaced every year.  My experience says Hogwash, requeen every other year and 1st generation supercedure queens are an acceptable substitute.

[Zoot]

Brian

Any thoughts here:  I still have that mediocre colony in my yard (no, I never combined per your advice). This was a colony I had requeened in June after losing the queen that had come with my package in MAy. The "new" queen has, despite my fervent hopes, never picked up the pace of her laying. So far she's filled two 8 frame mediums and doesn't seem motivated to go much beyond that. My question is - given her poor performance why haven't the bees superceded her? I don't believe the colony can winter at it's present strength so it seems that nature should have intervened by now.

[Brian D. Bray]

Zoot,

If and when I requeen, I do it once only each summer--usually in late May or early June when the performence of the queen is evident.  After that all my requeening is down via supercedure.  There is, from my experience very little fall off in quality from a queen and a 1st generation queen.  After that due to uncontrolled mating an element of degredation does take place but it usually takes several generations to get to the point that performance dictates replacement.
I know this flies in the face of conventional wisdom.  But I've been making due for years without following conventional wisdom.

You should have combined or let supercedure take place--I think your project hive would be in better shape if you had.

[Zoot]

I would concur with your thoughts on first generation queens because it is consistant with the practices of some of the old guys around here. What I am curious about is why, now that there has consistantly been brood available in this hive (2 mediums full more or less, some laid by the mediocre queen, some borrowed) the bees haven't superceded the queen. Putting the issue of combining aside one last time here, would it worth simply getting rid of the poor queen and letting the bees proceed on their own? Are 2  8 frame mediums fairly full of brood, honey and pollen enough to stimulate the rearing of a new queen this late in the summer?

[Brian D. Bray]

What is acceptable performance to the bees and to the beekeeper are often 2 different things.  The bees find the queen acceptable because she is not deformed or injured and she is laying at a slightly increasing rate for the hive.  The beekeeper, on the other hand, wants a queen that fills 2 or more boxes completely full of brood so that the hive becomes as big as possible as soon as possible.  

>>would it worth simply getting rid of the poor queen and letting the bees proceed on their own?

In generating a supercedure queen it is important to remember genetics.  Using a mediocre queen as a basis for the new queen will most likely result in another mediocre queen.  It is best to mark a frame from another hive with a queen with desired traits and then remove all supercedure cells from all frames but the marked frame.  That way you up grade your hive via supercedure.

>>Are 2 8 frame mediums fairly full of brood, honey and pollen enough to stimulate the rearing of a new queen this late in the summer?

If you have 2 medium 8 frames of brood in a hive that started on foundation--why consider replacing the queen.  It seems, to me, that she is operating at an acceptable range level if there are any additional boxes beside the 2 brood boxes.  Somethime we have a tendency to expect too much of our queens and our bees.

[Zoot]

I guess I should note that I've used the term "mediocre" in a general way here. With regard to this specific queen (physically she is a beautiful specimen, in all visual regards nicely formed and vigorous), I feel there is a good possibility that she was simply inadequately inseminated during her mating flights. I'm content to let the bees set their own pace here. There is and has been an additional box awaiting her Highness's pleasure and my only other barometer for performance has been it's neighboring hive where that queen has completely filled 4 mediums with brood.

[Brian D. Bray]

Your second queen demonstrates why I use 4 mediums as a basic brood box.  Use one of those slatted racks you made as a queen excluder when you super the bigger hive.

I would also seriously consider starting a nuc or 2 from that strong hive, the queen has some traits that would be worth expanding to other hives.

Dadant lists a complete (w/o frames) nuc for $20.50, Western Bee lists the same thing for $13.95.  These are of course Deeps but at $13.95 the one from Western Bee is worth cutting down and is still cheaper than medium nuc box listed by Bushy Mountain.  With the left over strip you can make slatted racks or vent spaces for you nucs.