What type and diameter of wire do you use in your frames?

[Lesgold]

Hi guys,

I was just looking at some images of brood frames where the queen would not lay in the cells that had wire beneath them? Is this a common issue for any of you? Does this occur due to the type of wire used or does it relate to the wire diameter? I know some of you don?t use wire at all and some use skewers, fishing line etc. What are the advantages and problems associated with each method from your personal perspective? It could be an interesting topic for discussion as we often get caught up in using one method and rarely look closely at other options.

[The15thMember]

I don't have any extra support in any of my frames, and I never have, and I've never had any problems result.  But I use all mediums and don't have an extractor, so my equipment just doesn't really require it.  I really like the fact that I can cut out any comb anytime anywhere without having to worry about wires.  But if I ever get an extractor, it may be necessary then.   

[BeeMaster2]

I also don?t use extra supports, mostly medium frames and I use an extractor. I have had a frame or two fail but is too rare to worry about. I use a lot of plasticell frames and I have a few of them fail. They had partial cracks that failed.
Jim Altmiller

[Lesgold]

That?s quite interesting. I suppose it?s another disadvantage of running deeps. I have a few wireless frames in the brood box but I could not run a wireless frame through my extractor unless it was an older one that had hardened up. I think the mediums have a big advantage from that perspective. Cut comb is also easier to harvest when no wires are involved. I know a beekeeper who uses wired frames for cut comb but it involves a bit more work. He snips each of the wires between the eyelets and then touches each end of the individual row wires with the two terminals of his battery charger. This heats the wire, softens the wax around it and he quickly pulls the wire out with a pair of pliers. Clever thinking really. The whole process only takes about 30 seconds to remove the four wires. The big disadvantage of this process is that the frame needs to be reworked again.

[beesnweeds]

I've used 26 and 27 gauge tinned wire and some frames the queen just doesn't lay on the wires.  Switching to stainless wire didn't make a difference.  In my early years I ran some hives with fishing line, skewers, and foundationless.  The problems with the line, skewers, starter strips and foundationless I ended up with too much ugly comb that isn't as productive.  My extractor will blow apart anything that isn't wired.  I was very skeptical trying plastic foundation and really didn't want to do it but, WOW!! Those frames covered from end to end with brood changed everything.  Colonies are more productive, easier to split, graft, etc.  It's also very easy to cull old foundation and pop in new.  I wanted to hate it, but bees just do so much better on it compared to the other hives.  For comb honey sometimes I use a starter strip or just a full sheet of comb foundation, they usually look prettier with a full sheet.

[Lesgold]

I wonder why the queen doesn?t lay in the area that the wire passes through the cells. I thought it may be contamination from tinned wire but if you have had the same issue with stainless wire, it wouldn?t be that. I use a very thin stainless wire (.3mm) and have never experienced that problem. Could it be the gauge of the wire that causes the queen to ignore cells with wire in them?

[max2]

I have been using SS wire for many years.
I don't know what diameter the wire is.
It is easy to use and I can get it in bulk rolls.
I sent Les a photo of some brood frames - the queen does not seem to be aware of the wire - there is nil difference in the comb.
I don't use wire for comb honey.
Like Les, my frames would blow if i would not use wires.
I have never used plastic foundations.
We use Hoop Pine boxes, Hoop Pine lids and bottoms, Hoop Pine frames with SS wire and i'm chaging to SS queen excluders now.
We use only glass jars for the honey.
Basically we have pretty well eliminated all plastic .
( still using food grade plastic buckets - these are recycled buckets from a dairy operation near us)

[paus]

Something you may want to try.  I use skewers from the grocery store, heavy ones but the skewers from the large everywhere store may work also.  I drill three holes in the bottom bar, one in the middle and split this distance halfway to the end. I insert skewers in these holes and use a small drop of glue on the bottom bar. cut the excess length off with wire cutters. It is faster and I think stronger and the bees like it better than wire.  I have not checked cost.

[beesnweeds]

Could it be the gauge of the wire that causes the queen to ignore cells with wire in them?

Could be, I really don't know why.  It wasn't all the wired frames, just some of them.  Now I have all wooden frames with plastic foundation. I know plastic isn't for everybody but the increase in brood and honey made it an easy choice for me.

[max2]

I don't have any extra support in any of my frames, and I never have, and I've never had any problems result.  But I use all mediums and don't have an extractor, so my equipment just doesn't really require it.  I really like the fact that I can cut out any comb anytime anywhere without having to worry about wires.  But if I ever get an extractor, it may be necessary then.   

!!"Don't have an extractor" interesting. I think you said that you have about 15 hives (?) How do you take the honey off?

[max2]

Could it be the gauge of the wire that causes the queen to ignore cells with wire in them?

Could be, I really don't know why.  It wasn't all the wired frames, just some of them.  Now I have all wooden frames with plastic foundation. I know plastic isn't for everybody but the increase in brood and honey made it an easy choice for me.

I have never used plastic foundations.
Any reason why plastic would result increase brood?

[The15thMember]

!!"Don't have an extractor" interesting. I think you said that you have about 15 hives (?) How do you take the honey off?

9 hives at the moment.  I just crush and strain.  I remove my supers with a triangle escape board and take them in the house.  Then I cut the honeycomb out of the frames, crush it up with a potato masher, and run the whole mess through a strainer.   

[Terri Yaki]

!!"Don't have an extractor" interesting. I think you said that you have about 15 hives (?) How do you take the honey off?

9 hives at the moment.  I just crush and strain.  I remove my supers with a triangle escape board and take them in the house.  Then I cut the honeycomb out of the frames, crush it up with a potato masher, and run the whole mess through a strainer.

Is this not hard on the bees to replace all that comb vs using existing comb? Are you able to do that because of the climate you are in? How much more honey would you get if they didn't have to replace all of that comb?

[The15thMember]

Is this not hard on the bees to replace all that comb vs using existing comb? Are you able to do that because of the climate you are in? How much more honey would you get if they didn't have to replace all of that comb?

I build up quite a surplus of drawn comb anyway.  I right now have more than 10 boxes worth of drawn comb in my garage and it could be as many as 15.  Early in the season when the colonies are expanding I'll give them boxes full of drawn comb.  Then once the colonies are at peak size, I typically load my supers with 4 drawn frames and 4 blanks, so the bees will draw 4 new frames per box.  Then I harvest the full honey frames, and as the hives condense in the fall, I put partially filled frames and drawn blanks back into storage for next year.  I mean, I guess you could argue that I would get even more honey if I could give them all the comb back, but honestly I get plenty of honey.  I got over 22 gallons of honey this year.  I'm just trying to produce enough for my family and little extra to sell, so I'm good.     

[Lesgold]

It?s a good system Reagan. No wiring of frames or purchasing and embedding foundation. That?s a time saver as a starting point. The bees love drawing comb so it?s a good swarm managing exercise in itself. You do well to use crush and strain honey from 9 hives. That would be the slowest part of the operation. If I was running a couple of hives and getting honey for friends and family, I would use your system as it is simple and very effective. It may not produce quite as much honey as other methods but even one hive will keep a family in honey for the whole year.  When I was running a couple of top bar hives, it used to be a treat to suit up some visitors, pinch a frame of honey, cut some comb for a cheese platter and then crush and strain honey for them to take home. That is a great way to impress guests.

[max2]

!!"Don't have an extractor" interesting. I think you said that you have about 15 hives (?) How do you take the honey off?

9 hives at the moment.  I just crush and strain.  I remove my supers with a triangle escape board and take them in the house.  Then I cut the honeycomb out of the frames, crush it up with a potato masher, and run the whole mess through a strainer.

Thanks!
My mate who makes mead and honey alcoholic beverages on a small commercial l scale ( he also takes my cappings) tested the moisture in the honey BEFORE straining it ( around 16) and the morning after hanging the mashed comb to drip and it went up to 18 something.

Our humidity is the issue . I was surprised that the moisture in the honey increased so fats. 18 is for us near the upper limit.
Have you any issues with moisture?

[max2]

Is this not hard on the bees to replace all that comb vs using existing comb? Are you able to do that because of the climate you are in? How much more honey would you get if they didn't have to replace all of that comb?

I build up quite a surplus of drawn comb anyway.  I right now have more than 10 boxes worth of drawn comb in my garage and it could be as many as 15.  Early in the season when the colonies are expanding I'll give them boxes full of drawn comb.  Then once the colonies are at peak size, I typically load my supers with 4 drawn frames and 4 blanks, so the bees will draw 4 new frames per box.  Then I harvest the full honey frames, and as the hives condense in the fall, I put partially filled frames and drawn blanks back into storage for next year.  I mean, I guess you could argue that I would get even more honey if I could give them all the comb back, but honestly I get plenty of honey.  I got over 22 gallons of honey this year.  I'm just trying to produce enough for my family and little extra to sell, so I'm good. 

I think 9 hives is a good number.
It would allow  you to be selfsufficient in bees and queens .
I could never store frames in my garage. The wax moth would have a field day.
The only way I can store drawn frames is in a freezer.
We have a very large freezer for home kills. When we stop freezing meat I may access this space. Having drawn combs would be a dream come true!

[beesnweeds]

Any reason why plastic would result increase brood?

The cells drawn are more consistent resulting in less drone brood and larger areas for the queen to lay fertilized eggs in.  Less drone brood equals less mites, diseases and healthier bees that draw even more brood comb. Wax foundation or foundationless with skewers there's cells that just aren't used because they're not shaped well.  Some wax foundation at times gets partially torn down exposing wires and skewers leaving frames that aren't as productive.  Cross or poorly drawn comb is easier to repair on plastic, once a frame of wax foundation is damaged or poorly drawn it's hard to repair it.  I like being able to use my own rendered wax to coat the foundation.

[The15thMember]

You do well to use crush and strain honey from 9 hives. That would be the slowest part of the operation.

It definitely is, but I don't harvest all my honey at one time, so I'm basically just crushing and straining intermittently all summer. 

Our humidity is the issue . I was surprised that the moisture in the honey increased so fats. 18 is for us near the upper limit.
Have you any issues with moisture?

Actually yes.  Our climate is very humid too, and I do sometimes have honey ferment.  But I don't really mind that either.  Fermented honey is just as good as normal honey in my book.  I just use the fermented stuff first, and I don't sell it.

I think 9 hives is a good number.
It would allow  you to be selfsufficient in bees and queens .

That's the goal.

I could never store frames in my garage. The wax moth would have a field day.
The only way I can store drawn frames is in a freezer.
We have a very large freezer for home kills. When we stop freezing meat I may access this space. Having drawn combs would be a dream come true!

I freeze all my comb for at least 48 hours and then store any frames with honey or pollen in plastic bins and any drawn blanks in tightly stacked extra equipment.  Our winters are cold enough that it sometimes grazes freezing in the garage, so this works well for me. 

[Lesgold]

Would love to be able to store comb like you do Reagan. I have the same issue as Max with winters not being cold enough to deter moths. I?ve got an idea that I would like to try but I don?t have a freezer big enough to hold a deep full of frames. This may be another job for next year.