S.S. 2:1, crystalized

[Cindi]

In the beginning of September I began feed 2:1 s.s. for winter stores build up.  The bees used this up several times.  They were fed in the inner feeders.  I was in the hives a few days ago and noticed that the bees were done with the sugar syrup, obviously had filled their hives (single box) right up.    The feeders were more than half full of the feed.  What I did see was that the s.s. had partly crystalized.  Now, I was taught that if the water for the 2:1 s.s. is dissolved at the boiling temperature, the s.s. mixture should stay in a liquid state, not with any crystalization.  Any thoughts on what may have happened.  I wonder if my measurements were out and there was too much sugar for the amount of water.  I used a 10kg bag of sugar to 11.5 litre of water.  Can't remember where I got the measurements from, but I think this gives the ratio for 2:1 sugar syrup mix.  I want to have the proper measurements for next year so I am not wasting this liquid that changed to a crystalized form.  Help.

[Finsky]

If it happens so, the syrup contais more sugar than 33%. When syrup is like oil, it is strong enough to feed. It is too thick it fastens onto bees' hairs and wings. So it i s better to add water.

66% is too stiff. I use some 60%.

If syrup is too light, I pour sugar to the bottom of feeder. So liquid will be saturated.

[Brian D. Bray]

Reading syrup recipes can be tricky.  1 pint of water to 1 lb of sugar is 1:1. Syrup recipes be if misread as 1 pint sugar to 1 quart water, which is actually 1:2 syrup.  For 2:1 syrup you want 1 quart (2 pints=2 lbs) sugar to 1 pint water.

[Michael Bush]

When making 2:1 I boil the water, add the sugar and heat until it is crystal clear (or it boils).  Usually it clears long before it boils again.  When I do this is seldom crystalized.  If I DON'T do this it always crystalizes.

[Zoot]

Some of the posts in this thread haven't been completely clear to me. Are we talking about 2:1 sugar syrup crystalizing in the comb or in the feeder?

[Finsky]

Some of the posts in this thread haven't been completely clear to me. Are we talking about 2:1 sugar syrup crystalizing in the comb or in the feeder?

2:1 syrup do not crystallized but if it becomes somehow stronger, it happens. Water vapour escapes or you put sugar too much. That is not so absolute life.  In this case it need only more water.

[Zoot]

when mixing 2:1 syrup I have always added the ingredients on assumption of 2 parts sugar to 1 part water (never paying any attention to weight, etc, just volume) . usually I pour it in to a large pot in cup increments, as in 2 cups of sugar at a time to one cup water at a time until I reach the capacity of whatever vessel I'm heating it in.

Is this correct?

[Finsky]

Is this correct?

It is coorect if you get appropriate  result.  I do same way.

If water is hot, then it is able to get too thick syrup. It happens often and I put water more.  I se when sugar start to crystallize inside feeding champer. Last autumn I was obliged to add water in several cases.

[Cindi]

Some of the posts in this thread haven't been completely clear to me. Are we talking about 2:1 sugar syrup crystalizing in the comb or in the feeder

What I was referring to was when I was feeding 2:1 s.s.to bees in an inner feeder to ensure enough winter stores.  In response to several responses.  I do bring the water firstly to a complete boil, add the sugar and continue heating again to the boiling point.  The s.s. still crystalized, the bees were finished with taking the s.s. anyways, as there was still some liquid in the feeders that they just never took anymore, guess all the cells were full.  I am very interested in having sugar in the hives as emergency feed in case they run out of sugar/honey stores.

[Trot]

Cindi,

you feel that you did not get clear answer to your question?  Or the answer is not clear?

It is my experience that the ss in the feeder will only crystalize if the sugar is not completely dissolved. Remember, it only takes few grains...  Same as in honey - if making creamed.

Relax, it does not mean that same has happened in the combs. Remember that bees had processed it and if by some chance a grain, (seed) was in the ss that they took in - crystallization would be only in that one particular cell - which is highly unlikely,
as hive conditions are totally different from those in almost empty feeder...

Regards,
Frank

[Kathyp]

don't some people feed dry sugar?  the bees must be able to process that? if they can use dry or candy, i wouldn't think that crystallize syrup would be an issue.  i never even heat mine.  just mix it with hot tap water.  it's never been a problem.  i never even thought to boil it  :-\

[Brian D. Bray]

Dry sugar is the last emergency resort.  Water must be provided when using it.  With dry sugar the bees are forced to make their own syrup--its very labor intensive for the bees but will keep a hive alive in the extreme emergency. 
It is much better to take the time to monitor the bees and prepare simple syrup or use corn syrup than use dry sugar.  Powdered sugar also works but is one step ahead of dry sugar on my emergency feeding list.
Using powdered sugar for mite control gets the mites off the bees and feeds the bees at the same time.

[Finsky]

Dry sugar is the last emergency resort.  Water must be provided when using it.  With dry sugar the bees are forced to make their own syrup--its very labor intensive for the bees

Well said!  When bees store the syrup into combs and cap it, process takes 25% from syrup to do it. Could you imagine how much it takes energy to carry water outside and dissolve sugar crystals  --- what is the idea in this?

Bees need 20 kg sugar to over wintering. It is quite a heap to put it over bee hive  ---- why?

When bees have capped winter stores inside, there is no need to give dry sugar during winter. They must be in peace. They need not human care if you ask them. Bees are not aquarium fishes.

[Cindi]

Cindi,

you feel that you did not get clear answer to your question?  Or the answer is not clear?

It is my experience that the ss in the feeder will only crystalize if the sugar is not completely dissolved. Remember, it only takes few grains...  Same as in honey - if making creamed.

Relax, it does not mean that same has happened in the combs. Remember that bees had processed it and if by some chance a grain, (seed) was in the ss that they took in - crystallization would be only in that one particular cell - which is highly unlikely,
as hive conditions are totally different from those in almost empty feeder...

Regards,
Frank

Frank, ya, kind of unclear answer and no clear answer.  Ha, ha.  This whole s.s. thing is rather confusing at times.  I appreciate what you are saying, makes sense.  When I first noticed the crystalization occurring in the inner feeders, I brought them into the house (most of the liquified s.s. was used up,but some had crystalized in the bottom).  I washed them out really well, knowing that if I added more syrup that it would also crystalize due to the grains.  I kind of knew that, not sure why.  Even with these "cleaned" feeders, there were still further crystalizing problems, but it was not enough that the bees could not take liquid, because the cystalization as at the bottom of the feeders and along the outside walls.  As I said before, I did have the water at boiling and returned the s.s. to the boil, it was clear, I'm thinking that I may have too much sugar to water and as Finksy said, one may have to add water to the feeder later.  Oh well, I'm finished with the s.s. feeding, the bees are not taking it any more, I just want to be ready for the heavy syrup next fall.  Thanks for the help, y'all.  Regards, Cindi

[Finsky]

There is no need to make syrup feeding science. It is usefull that bees take in as strong syrup as they can but in some limit problems will occur. 

* Too light, I pour sugar flour into feeding box or into bucket and mix a little
* Too stiff, I add water into feeding box and stir it a little (bees become thirsty and it is slow to take)

I prefer to make light and then add sugar flour.  In proper temperature syrup gets it's saturating point and make no harm any more. If syrup is hot, it will be after cooling too stiff.

I make syrup at a time  as 50 liter amounts.
.

[Kathyp]

Bees are not aquarium fishes.

:-D  thanks for the laugh.....i have called my hive my outdoor aquarium because i love to watch what the bees do.

[Trot]

Cindi,

now you got me confused? !  Too much sugar?  2:1 is 2:1 - it can't be too much sugar cause than it can't be 2:1 !?

A lot of beeks in the fall feed 2.5 :1 and also 3:1.
You must be using  hive-top, box like feeders?  I never particularly cared for those. They tend to get ss too cold on the edges - perhaps that is the problem.
I like pail feeder which one inverts over the hole on inner cover. It is clean, neat, fast, warm and in all of my 52 years as beek - never a problem.

I do notice when sometimes I spill some ss on inner cover that it in a few day crystallizes!  I am of opinion that the wood absorbs and wicks the water and that is why this occurs. But by the time I return with full pails, (when I run commercial yards I had replacements ready!) The bees usually clean all that up - but  the wood stays wet a long time. Of course it has to be warm for that and bees wanting more...

Wish you a nice day in beautiful BC...

Regards,
Frank

[Cindi]

Hi Frank
Guess I should have clarified a little better about a couple things.  2:1 s.s. is what I was feeding, but I was not sure if I had accurate 2 parts sugar to 1 part water, I had a 10 kg bag of sugar that I put into a pail, measured where it was and made a mark.  Then I removed this sugar, placed in water to make this volume doubled, made a mark where the waterline was.  This was my amount of water to use.  Then I put the water in a large large pot, boiled it, added the sugar, kept it almost boiling and then used the s.s. solution.  Seems like a lot of work, but I had a permanent mark on this pail for the correct amount of water to sugar.  But now I feel like my actions were unnecessary, as beeks feed even a more concentrated from of sugar to water for feed.  Oh well.

The second clarification is that I don't use the hive top feeder.  I was speaking about the plastic inner feeder that fits in place of a frame, it holds almost a gallon.  It is a good system, except that I do find that when pouring in the s.s. quite a few bees are drowned.  This is a concern for sure.  There are sticks that I put in the inner plastic feeder to prevent drowning, but still death occurs.  I do not like that, it is needless.  Maybe I will next year use the friction pail feeders, sounds like it is actually more simple for sure, the only drawback that I can see is a possible loss of heat for the bees because the pail needs to be put inside an empty super, right?

When I hived one of my packages last year, I did use a small friction feeder pail, but I was rather neglectful and put the queen cage directly below the feeder.  Rather stupid, but hindsight.  The queen must have drowned by this pail of s.s. dripping on her while she was caged.  the other packages I had used the plastic inner feeders and they were all ok, so I presume that she drowned.  Oh well, so many lesssons learned, one year I hope to be able to keep bees without so many hard knocks that I have taken in my almost 2 years as a beek.  Regards  Cindi

[Trot]

Cindi,

I personally have no use for those division feeders. I did have a few when I first started with bees in this country. You already found some of the reasons for a dislike...
IMO the pail feeders are the way to go. One can fill them at home, drive to the yard and simply remove the empty and add the full.  No disturbing of bees and no loss of heat - which seems to be your concern. Naturally, to use pails an inner cover is a must! Over this than, one puts an empty super.
Do not place pail directly on frames!
Inner cover is an essential part of a bee hive. But than you probably have one?

About ss leaking on bees? If lids on pail have self made holes - they are probably too big, there are too many, or ss is too thin. That said, when one inverts the pail, this should be done over another pail, cause all will leak a bit, until the air-lock starts to hold the ss back and than one puts the pail over the hole on inner cover...

And you are doing great. Nobody knows it all. We all learn, that is why we are here and without questions being asked - this site would be but an empty space. . . .

Regards,
Frank

[mat]

I think, the proportion of sugar to water in the feeding syrup is by weigh not volume, so 2:1 syrup means two kg of sugar in one kg=liter of water. Or 2# of sugar in one quater of water. I mix 10#(9 kg) of sugar in 4.5 liters of water and this gives me 3 gallons of 2:1 of syrup. It does cristalize when outside temp drops close to 0 deg C. And I red, I think in "Bee culture", that you need to give one gallon of this 2:1 syrup for each 9 pounds of missing stores.