feeding dry pollen substitute

[Kathyp]

anyone do this?  i have read a couple of articles about it and was advised today that this is becoming the way to go.  sure cuts down the mess and is easier.

thoughts?

[Michael Bush]

I just put it on a solid bottom board in an empty hive.  The lid keeps the rain out and the bees tear it up.

[Brian D. Bray]

It sounds too easy.

[Finsky]

The basic in feeding substitude is that it is

Like Bryan says it is too easy to be true.

* cold spring or cold weather and bees do not get pollen putside
* bees cannot eat directly dry food. They leave it untouched
* patty must be immediately over the brood area. Just hatched bees need it.
* if patty is not just beside, bees do consume it.
* you must feed one pound per week that it is effective


* patty must be moist and soft that bees may eat is. When you add fructose or honey enough it takes moisture from hive air.

It is so lovely. If you give 10 formula to use patty, beekeeper finds at once 11 th. their own alternative.  :-D

[Finsky]

I have feeded my bees with pollen and pollen patty during 15 years.  I have tried to learn to do it better and better.  One key point is the moisture of patty. Often when bees have not eaten patty and you ad eater to it, they start to eat it at once. Bees use they jaws to eat stuff. They lick with tongue the sugar juice.

Soya flour makes patty hard and yeast softens the soya.

If soys flour is too rough bees cannot bite it and it drops down to bottom.

There is not handy og easy way to handle that feeding. The main point is to feed so much as possible, not easy feeding.  Easy feeding is that let them be in natural way.  But it is sure that mere candy or sugar feeding does not help in spring build up.

[Michael Bush]

They can only get pollen from an open feeder in flying weather, of course.  I try to do that AND put on some patties so they have pollen when it's NOT flying weather.  But gathering pollen seems to stimulate them to rear brood more than the patties do.  The patties fill in the gaps when they can't fly.

[Finsky]

They can only get pollen from an open feeder in flying weather, of course. 

In Australia they use dry open feeding because they have yield plants which have not enough some amino acids. It has nothing to do with spring build up.

As far as I have feeded outside, it is very unsure. Once I gaved pollen. First it must be moist that bees may gather balls in legs. During the day one strong hive concured the pollen place and pushed other 15 hives away. Dead bees were plenty. The volume what they gathered to hive was very small. The Hive flied like mad and bees wasted their energy just flying every direction because they were alarmed. This is really very bad system to handle feeding.  It is just fun game but waste of bees.

[Mici]

everything seems ok, but one thing. you say you have to feed it prior any plants bloosom, so they have a 3 week head start. well, i don't know much about your springs but...it's not so uncommon to have flowers blooming, while it's still to cold for bees to fly, or a cast of very cold weather. but you say, they must be able to fly, but....in those 3 weeks of +8C flowers are sure to blossom. do you act by calendar also? please advise.

[Finsky]

do you act by calendar also? please advise.

THIS MY CASE AND EVERY ONE SHOULD LEARN THEIR OWN CASES.

It is very simple here. I have nursed bees 45 years and I have not found in spring special variation.

Snow goes away in first or second week of April.

Almost every year willow start to bloom first of May. Aspen gives sometimes pollen but it has no real meaning. Only two times it has started blooming 15.4.

It must be +16C and sun when bees are able to gather pollen balls in their legs. They may fly in low temperatus but they cannot forage enough and they are in danger to be killed during their flyings. Of course they get something but not to broduce brood with full speed.

In May our weather is such that maybe we have good weather or maybe we have 3 weeks that bees cannot come out.

When you start pollen feeding at the begnning of April, you cannot know what kind of wethers you have up to June. When you start you must continue it.

Even if I feed during May and willow gives all the time pollen, bees eate patty and eate willow pollen too. At the beginning of June it may be that all pollen stores are out from hives.

In May we have practically no other pollen plants than willow.

BUT I have beekeeper at the disance of 600 meter. He says that pollen feeding is not necessary and he gets as good yiled as I have. But he is a farmer and he protects willows on his lands. Around my yard farmers cut most willow away. I can see that bees cannot fly long distance in May. Pollen must be very near the hives, about a half kilometer.

[Kathyp]

so the answer is "don't feed dry"?  :-)

[Mici]

thank you finsky, i am well aware of the subjective state-the differences, but it helps a lot to get the description with which i can compare.
only a few more question and i think i'll be "ready"
ok, obviusly i can't put it above the frames, or on top, is it ok to put it on the bottom?

do they use, are they ok with pattie even though temperatures don't allow them to fly out-that is to get water?

[Finsky]

, is it ok to put it on the bottom?

do they use, are they ok with pattie even though temperatures don't allow them to fly out-that is to get water?

They do not take from bottom. Only place is over frames on bee cluster.

If bees do not get water outside duriing oen week, all open larvae will be dead. They need water if there is much larvae. They do not tear capped brood away.

If bees do not get water for two days, they become terribly thirsty and hundreds  of bees come carry water in the morning even if it temp is just above freezing point.  Lack of water is serious matter.

[Mici]

huston, we have a problem, and i persume other type feeders are useless aswell. it's funny, how one thinks that he has let's say hive in his head...i just hope there's enough roome above the frames, i think there is, i'll look at a picture.

ok so, if temperatures are too low, could i pour them some water into the feeder? (AŽ, hives have a 1l feeder at the back at all times), let's say 2 Dcl

[Finsky]

hope there's enough roome above the frames, i think there is, i'll look at a picture.

It should not bee enough space over frames because bees fill it with burr.

I have made a frame which lift the inner coper 10 mm up and makes space for patty.  They are plywood slices which heahs go over each other. Then you pt another slices which fill the gaps.

LOOK PICTURE, brown lifter

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/valkuaisruoka1.jpg

[Mici]

so, you think that here isn't enough room? looks like at least 10mm. fill it with burr? you mean wax it up, ah well, looks like a prior inspection is a must.
how about their honey supply, i fed them quite generously, but am still afraid i might do more damage with feeding them this pollen pattie, they surelly deplet them faster, don't they?

[Finsky]

but am still afraid i might do more damage with feeding them this pollen pattie, they surelly deplet them faster, don't they?

?????????  - I do not know what are you asking?

[Mici]

by feeding them pattie, i increase the number of bees before any natural sources of pollen/nectar are available. so, if i feed the patties, they have to have big supplyes of honey, that's what i meant. if i increase the number too much, the grown up bees might starve.

[Finsky]

the grown up bees might starve.

You must continue feeding as long as they need. Critical point is that new emerging bees need a lot pollen during their first 6 days and then they start to feed larvae.

[Cindi]

Like everyone says, bees need lots of pollen to produce royal jelly to feed to young bees.  If they do not have sufficient pollen the hypopharyngeal glands do not produce royal jelly to feed larvae.  This is their protein and they require high numbers of it when feeding young.  This pollen is integral to the nurse bees, the most important part of keeping bees.

In our climate we begin the pollen patty feeding around the March 1.  The bees consume incredible amount of the pollen patty.  During this period my colonies were consuming about 1 pound per week of the patty, maybe more.

Around March 20 (three weeks later) we begin to feed 1:1 sugar syrup mixture to stimulate spring build-up.  This mimics the nectar flow using the 1:1 sugar syrup mixture.

This is all surrounding the fact that the bees have had enough winter stores given to them so they do not starve.

I noticed in my bee journal that April 11 of last year my colonies (Carniolan) still had unused capped honey in their hive that I had fed them the prior fall. 

By April 24 they were all very well built up and both brood chambers were full of bees.

I stopped feeding pollen patties and sugar syrup about May 1.  They were on their own and did very well.  UNTIL LATE SUMMER when things went bad.  That was massive declining in bees, maybe due to swarms that issued that I didn't know about, not keeping the brood nest open, thus the queens becoming honeybound with no place to lay eggs and varroa mite destruction for sure.  Lessons learned the hard way, but going into the next season well prepared with information.
Great day.  Cindi

[Finsky]

During years I have noticed that after winter bees have huge protein hunder even if they have not larvae. It takes only 3 days when big hive eats one pound patty.  They have consumed their body protein stores during winter, even if I put all pollen frames into hives for winter.