Newbie: Confusion with Frames

Everglow · January 24, 2007, 07:55:04 PM

I've recently acquired some rather odd (likely old-style) frames, and I don't know how to put foundation into them. The top of the frame seems to be missing the piece of wood that is nailed into the top of the foundation. Also, the foundation is blank (no wires). How do I go about putting wired through it? I have an electrical embedder, but I'm not entirely sure how to place the wires. Thanks!

img95.imageshack.us/img95/7012/frame016rt.jpg
This is the top of the frame; note that there is no perforation or anything to allow one side of the groove to be broken off.

img95.imageshack.us/img95/9049/frame028tt.jpg
img95.imageshack.us/img95/7345/frame035eg.jpg
Two more images of the frame, just to give you a good idea.

Understudy · January 24, 2007, 09:01:34 PM

Here let me help you with that image thing.

The frames you have a slot for what is known as a foundation.

You would definitly need a top bar you can order them from any beekeeping supplier.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Everglow · January 24, 2007, 09:03:28 PM

What my frames are missing is the piece of wood that pinches the wax at the top of the frame to hold it in place. Do I need this, or will it be fine once I embed wire into the foundation?

buzzbee · January 24, 2007, 09:14:17 PM

The piece is referred to as the wedge.
Not sure if you can buy it seperate of the top bar as they are often part of the top bar not completely removed.

Everglow · January 24, 2007, 09:21:25 PM

Do I *need* a wedge? Or will it be okay if I just embed horizontal wires to hold the foundation in place?

Brian D. Bray · January 24, 2007, 09:35:41 PM

Using wires is a common practice with most beekeepers. The wedge on the top bar makes installing the foundation into the frame easier. It is normal to use wires and wedges together. Some frames are made without the wedge, in which case you use melted wax to secure the foundation to the frame.

Everglow · January 24, 2007, 09:40:38 PM

What is the proper way to melt wax into the top of the frame in order to secure the foundation?

Kathyp · January 24, 2007, 09:43:43 PM

my 2 cents worth. if you run wire from the frame, through the foundation (i think that's what you mean) it makes processing more difficult. i had some frames and foundation like that given to me. it wasn't that big a deal, but the wires had to be cut to remove the foundation. then you have to do the rewiring thing. the pins are much easier for holding the sides of the foundation steady i also used some sheets of foundation for my deeps that had the wire embedded in the wax. much easier to remove, but then the wires had to come out of the wax for processing unless you are using an extractor and only taking the honey, not the wax. again, not a big deal, but kind of messy.

MB posted the link to a tool that melts wax in a tube so that you can wax the foundation to the frame. looks like a much better deal and much easier than the wedge. the wedge would be easy to replace by buying some soft wood and splitting pieces off. it doesn't need to be perfect.

Everglow · January 24, 2007, 09:55:40 PM

I am preparing frames for a deep super. If I use melted wax to hold the top of the foundation in and then only use pins to stabilize it, what's the likelihood that the full comb will be too heavy and tear the foundation out of the frame?

These deep supers will only be used for larva and extraction. I am going to use some shallow supers for cutting comb out of. Should I use the wax and pin method with those?

Greg Peck · January 24, 2007, 10:05:59 PM

It looks to me like your top bar is grooved and your bottom bar is grooved. This set up may be used for plastic foundation. If you would like to make your top bar into a wedge type you need only to cut along one side of the bottom of the top bar. Cut just far enough to remove half of the grove, this will leave you with a thin piece of wood (the wedge). Set your foundation into the grove in the bottom bar and lay it over aginst the remaining piece of the top bar (the half of the grove you did not cut away)then nail your wedge in.

Just a note about removing wire from capped honey comb. I have not done this yet but my local bee guy from Ziegler's Apiary told me that what he does sometimes when he has comb that he wants the wire removed from (like for cut comb or chunks) he cuts the wire at the end then puts the leads from his embedded on each end for a second (I guess the time would change depending on how big your transformer is) he then grabs one end of the wire with pliers and pulls it out. Because the wire is hot it slides right out.

Kathyp · January 24, 2007, 10:11:24 PM

QuoteThese deep supers will only be used for larva and extraction. I am going to use some shallow supers for cutting comb out of. Should I use the wax and pin method with those?

i use the wax and pin for both. i use the wired foundation for the brood boxes with pins to stabilize the sides. no wires in my honey supers. thats the way i ended up after some trial and error last year.

some people here do their frames with starter strips. i have not tried this and will leave it to them to explain. sounds interesting and i may yet try it.

some also use only one size box (med) for brood and honey. makes sense.

Michael Bush · January 24, 2007, 10:23:16 PM

Is there a groove instead of a wedge or is there just the space where the wedge would go and no wedge? In other words, is it just a groove or is one side of the bottom of the frame lower than the other?

If you just need a wedge, any small thin piece of wood will do. Cut one.

If you have a groove, melt some wax and pour in the groove with the foundation in the groove to anchor it in the groove. Or buy a wax tube fastener to help do that:
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=231

http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=102

Look at item number 165

Everglow · January 24, 2007, 11:13:32 PM

Thank you all so much for your help! I was irritated this morning when I couldn't figure out how on earth this was all supposed to fit together.

The frames have a groove on top and *no* groove on the bottom. They seem to be geared for beeswax foundations. I read in another post that I should, instead of fastening the bottom of the foundation to the bottom the the frame, but the foundation about 10mm from the bottom in order to allow for wax expansion. Since there is no groove on the bottom of the frame, does this sound right?

Also, does the wax hold okay? I could probably cut off one half of the groove so that I could nail it back onto the opposite side to get the same effect as the wedge. Would this be a good idea?

Michael Bush · January 25, 2007, 07:31:52 AM

>The frames have a groove on top and *no* groove on the bottom. They seem to be geared for beeswax foundations.

My first preference is no groove at all top or bottom and then I cut a bevel on the top:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Foundation49.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

This makes a foundationless frame. My second favorite is what you have, which is no groove on the bottom, for wax worms and SHB to hide in, and a groove on the top, where I wax the foundation in. You can either cut the foundation short and leave space at the bottom for drone brood:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Foundation49.jpg

Or you can cut it to fit with the bottom of the foundation resting on the bottom bar and wire it if you like.

Anytime you use wax foundation there is the problem of sagging. Beeswax really is not a solid, just a slow liquid. If you wait long enough it will sag. Give it warm weather and bees hanging on it and it will sag sooner. I like to put the foundation in just before I give it to the bees so they will draw it quickly and it won't sag. Wiring will buy you some time, but it will still eventually sag.