Package bees - Day 10 and no brood

AllanJ · April 10, 2007, 05:52:21 PM

I direct released the queen on the 31st March with a package. Today we finally got around to opening the hive. The bees are very active across 5 frames of permacomb and have even built up the cells a fraction. There is pollen and even a couple of cells capped yellow. However, there is absolutely no evidence of any brood in the hive. After 10 days we would have expected some capped as well as eggs etc. :(

http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/laughingmeadows/1st%20Inspection/

I am now searching for another queen...

I also noticed that there are 2 different sizes of bees. Probably 50% bigger than the others. I thought they were drones at first but I thought drones would be the same looking bee, but bigger. These bees appear to be totally different..

There are a few in this picture..
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/laughingmeadows/1st%20Inspection/?action=view&current=IMG_2159.jpg

Understudy · April 10, 2007, 06:10:41 PM

I looked at your photos. The bees are doing some stuff with the permacomb. I will ask how did you prepare your permacomb?

Have you seen the queen?

Sincerely,
Brendhan

AllanJ · April 10, 2007, 06:19:37 PM

I sprayed the PC with syrup and HBH. Is it possible that the queen (I have not seen her) is still alive but waiting for cells to be ready after 10 days? Or she has rejected the PC and is not laying but still alive? If she was still alive, I might have expected to see some brood in the cells they built on top of the PC.

I was thinking about popping a medium of small cell foundation on top and letting them draw it out until I got another queen.

Understudy · April 10, 2007, 06:25:46 PM

If you haven't seen the queen you may have lost her.
I recommend rubbing beeswax on permacomb also. If the bees are working the permacomb it would seem the queen has died or bolted. Especially if you haven't seen her.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

pdmattox · April 10, 2007, 08:03:25 PM

Just a thought, you said that you direct released her, Not sure if that was a good idea or not. Anyway you got to get a queen in there or some brood. Those are drones i see in the pic.

AllanJ · April 10, 2007, 08:12:15 PM

I would say now, that it was bad idea.. Is it normal to have lots of drones in a package?

Kirk-o · April 10, 2007, 08:18:18 PM

I think you should take the time to find the queen one frame at a time If she is a gonner get a new one the bees look like they are working the perma comb

just establish if you got a queen first that matters the mos do that and handle accordingly
kirko

pdmattox · April 10, 2007, 08:29:31 PM

Quote from: AllanJ on April 10, 2007, 08:12:15 PM
Is it normal to have lots of drones in a package?

I never have done a package but i would say it was possible that when they shook frames that some of the bees would have been drones. It could be that there is a hive feral or otherwise nearby.

AllanJ · April 10, 2007, 08:49:53 PM

Quote from: Kirk-o on April 10, 2007, 08:18:18 PM
I think you should take the time to find the queen one frame at a time If she is a gonner get a new one the bees look like they are working the perma comb

Yes, they are certainly working the PC and even building new comb on the top.. but if there was a queen, I would expert to see some brood by now. Is it possible that the queen is still in there but refused to lay in the PC? I was thinking about putting a medium of wax foundation above the PC..

If the queen died during the first couple of days, what state should the hive be in after 7-10 days without a queen?

MarkR · April 10, 2007, 09:12:54 PM

Wow! That sucks. Hope you didn't lose your queen Alan, though Glen can get another one should you need it (talked to him last night). My hive is PC as well but is rubbed with wax and sprayed with sugar water. I don't have nearly the the building in mine that you're getting, though they're not building on top. Guess we're both learning a lot.

Mark

buzzbee · April 10, 2007, 09:24:39 PM

Do you have an inner cover and are you feeding syrup to help them build wax?

AllanJ · April 10, 2007, 09:33:11 PM

I have a hive top feeder, no inner cover. They have not taken as much syrup as I expected, about 3/4 gallon so far, but they are bringing in pollen.

Mark, I might be able to get one local (waiting for call back) but otherwise I will call Glen. Did you already drive down and pick yours up?

Michael Bush · April 10, 2007, 09:37:55 PM

>I would say now, that it was bad idea..

I always direct release. I just did 22 of them Sunday.

> Is it normal to have lots of drones in a package?

Lot's? No. Some? Yes.

MarkR · April 10, 2007, 10:25:03 PM

Quote from: AllanJ on April 10, 2007, 09:33:11 PM
Mark, I might be able to get one local (waiting for call back) but otherwise I will call Glen. Did you already drive down and pick yours up?

I'm picking it up from him tomorrow afternoon. Actually he's going to be in town so it's easy. And just as weather seems to be breaking. . . knock on wood. Warm enough that my ladies for eating again. I'm guessing that's a good sign.

Mark

AllanJ · April 10, 2007, 11:19:35 PM

So, If the queen died during the first day, what state should the hive be in after 7-10 days without a queen? Do the bees just keep on going until they all die?

Understudy · April 11, 2007, 12:22:04 AM

Either that or you will end up with a laying worker. If you have a brood frame you can put in there do that. if not order a queen.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

MrILoveTheAnts · April 11, 2007, 01:04:00 AM

I'm surprised none of the workers have started laying eggs of their own. I caught half a swarm last year, without the queen, and it was wall to wall drone cells.

AllanJ · April 11, 2007, 08:01:20 AM

If capped honey is white (I think), what is a bright yellow capping?

When using Permacomb, would the capping be level with the frame or extend out by 1-2mm and have a slight outward curve?

With PC being about 5.1 cell size, would it be possible for a drone to be layed in the cells by a laying worker?

How far would a cell be extended out of the PC for a drone cell?

Thanks!

Understudy · April 11, 2007, 08:33:30 AM

Quote from: AllanJ on April 11, 2007, 08:01:20 AM
If capped honey is white (I think), what is a bright yellow capping?

Could be a worker cell. Could be more capped honey.

Quote
When using Permacomb, would the capping be level with the frame or extend out by 1-2mm and have a slight outward curve?

Yes, usually with a worker cell or drone cell.

Quote
With PC being about 5.1 cell size, would it be possible for a drone to be layed in the cells by a laying worker?

A laying worker could lay in the permacomb cells. Usually drone cells are built off the bottom of the frame.

Quote
How far would a cell be extended out of the PC for a drone cell?

Thanks!

A few millimeters. However like I mentioned to another member yesterday. If your bees are not regressed the cells will be bubbled. And those would be worker cells. The first time I saw it I freaked out. I thought I had a laying worker. It wasn't until I saw a worker chew her way out that things started to make sense.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

AllanJ · April 11, 2007, 03:03:01 PM

Iâ€™m just so confused.. :?

It is due to be higher temps tomorrow so I will open it up again and take a much better and closer look into the cells. Iâ€™ll also take some better pictures to examine later. In the mean time try and track down a queen..