Hey everyone,
First, I want to wish everyone a Safe and a Happy Holiday!! And please, bring our troops home safe! But, after my posting "what does a beekeeper do in the winter?' I took alot of your advise,building new equipment,fixing damaged equipment, and of course a couple of Margariatas! Looking at the catalogs and making a wish list for Santa. One of the things that I don't have are Queen Excluders. Are they worth buying or are they a waste of money and not worth the space that they will take up in my barn. I know that it is winter and I won't need them for months to come. And the slanted bottom boards, are they worth buying or making? And what advantage are they to the hive? Like I said before, I have lots of questions and I hope that with all of the experiance that is out there, it will help me grow to the level that I want to be at. and last but not least, What is a good book for a Rookie to add to my list for Santa?
Happy Holidays!
Marcus :-D
Most beeks, myself included, dont use queen excluders except to keep newly installed or swarm queens in a new hive. If the queen needs more room to lay, who am I to disagree by putting in an excluder. I think you mean slatted bottom racks and yes i lik'em a lot. They definately help w/ temp control in both summer and winter. The brood patterns are larger, especially in early spring. A slatted rack w/ a screned bottom board combo works nicely w/ seemingly no down sides and lots of up side. I also use a vented telescoping top which worked great in summer and I'll get back to you in april w/ how they work in winter. Books.... search the site as there aare plenty of books out there. I personally would suggest a sunscription to the bee mags, I prefer American Bee Journal over Bee culture but both are great. I have read CC Millers 50 yrs..., historically intersting(he paid $7 for a "box" of bees just after the civil war. I paid $70 for a deep in 2006). There are others out there and I have read many, but I find myself using this site in lieu of actually reading the books for emergent info. I tend to read'em on vacation. The person in the seat next to me on the plane is always shocked!
The slatted racks are great, you'll notice a decline in bearding. The queen excluders are worthless. I never had great harvests till I got rid of them. :-D
I have SBB's, so don't use the slatted rack BB.
Queen excluders have a place, depending on your beekeeping style. Never use them with foundation, this is where they cause problems most of the time.
Most of the time,though, if they have drawn comb, they will ignore a queen excluder and pass through fine. Many people have top entrances with queen excluders.
I happen to have some supers that are foundationless, so the bees drew them out as large cell storage comb/drone comb. The queen will pass through 2 full supers or more to lay in that comb, so then a QE is really indispensible.
However, if you use foundation everywhere, and all of your supers are worker size comb and you have one full so far...then you probably won't need a QE.
They are nice for other stuff though...limiting a queen for whatever reason(limiting her to find her if you have trouble, swarms as mentioned above,...), draining cut comb, window screens to keep out large rodents, etc.
Rick
I use screened bottom boards (SBB) so I don't use the slotted racks. Brian should post he speaks very highly of them. I don't have a bias against them. For me it is an either or situation.
I very much believe in having something on the bottom that is either an SBB or slotted rack bottom board. It helps the bees maintain the temprature of the hive in the hotter months and cuts down on bearding. If you have one on in winter you should place a tray or similar to block the cold air from getting in. I firmly believe in them.
The beekeeping bible is called the ABC&XYZ of Bee Culture.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Sincerely,
Brendhan
I recommend using 2 slatted racks, 1 on the bottom of the hive between the lower brood box and the bottom board and the other between the top brood box and the honey supers in place of a queen excluder. One point that I think is very important is not to limit the broodchamber. Give the queen 4 mediums or 3 deeps before dedicating supers for harvest. You'll have a much stronger productive hive. Zoot should post--he's been following my methods and seems to be doing very well.
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on November 21, 2007, 10:00:21 PM
I recommend using 2 slatted racks, 1 on the bottom of the hive between the lower brood box and the bottom board and the other between the top brood box and the honey supers in place of a queen excluder. One point that I think is very important is not to limit the broodchamber. Give the queen 4 mediums or 3 deeps before dedicating supers for harvest. You'll have a much stronger productive hive. Zoot should post--he's been following my methods and seems to be doing very well.
How do you keep all the burr out or do you just leave it? RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on November 21, 2007, 11:04:33 PM
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on November 21, 2007, 10:00:21 PM
I recommend using 2 slatted racks, 1 on the bottom of the hive between the lower brood box and the bottom board and the other between the top brood box and the honey supers in place of a queen excluder. One point that I think is very important is not to limit the broodchamber. Give the queen 4 mediums or 3 deeps before dedicating supers for harvest. You'll have a much stronger productive hive. Zoot should post--he's been following my methods and seems to be doing very well.
How do you keep all the burr out or do you just leave it? RDY-B
I've found that burr comb is usually a result of not giving the bees enough room to make new comb so they start building it wherever they can. Timely supering, regardless of the super size, will do more for eliminating burr comb than any other one thing. I don't have a burr comb problem because I figured that out back in the 60's. So timely supering and giving additional space in other ways (slatted racks) works for me in reducing burr comb. Also pulling a storage frame from the outside of a super and replacing it with an undeveloped frame works the same way. You should notice that most hives will build burr comb like crazy post harvest and as the brood chambers are backfilled. Working, uncrowded bees build very little burr comb.
Is that like the unlimited broodnest theory? 8-) RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on November 21, 2007, 11:21:55 PM
Is that like the unlimited broodnest theory? 8-) RDY-B
Unlimited brood chamber can be done in a number of ways and this would be one way. Check out www.bushfarms.com for more info on diff ways to uuse an unlimited brood area. For me, the theoretical loss of honey is far outweighed by the anti-swarming benefits of UBL. I let the quuen lay where she may.
Thanks for all of the info. It helps alot. Sounds like they are a waste of time and money. Both of which I dont have alot of. I don't know why they put those things in the packages the they sell beginners. I tried one, at the end of this season and all that I got out of it was alot of burr comb on it. It was like they were sealing it up. :? So, I can mark that one off of my Santa List.
Thank you,
Marcus
Always happy to chime in on the slatted rack issue; ventilation is certainly a benefit but the added space for bees to disperse their population over is probably just as valuable with regards to swarm control. I assume it dovetails nicely into the unlimited broodnest concept. I have never had so much as a speck of burr comb on any of my slatted racks, upper or lower. No swarms or evn swarming behavior and minimal internal moisture - I also use sbb's. Also had exceptional honey production this season (with less than desirable weather all season) which I hope is another related benefit to all of the above. I'm optimistic with the arrangement but will feel a bit more confident with my observations with another season under my belt. My mite population is also minimal though I did treat 2 of my hives with thymol this fall - they were nucs that came with mites.
Zoot, still trying to get the concept of the slatted bottomboard. I know you got the design from Brian. But what I can't get is: the doweling runs parallel to the frames, but do the dowels sit right underneath the bottom of the frame, inbetween or what. I just can't seem to get the picture. Some time when you have a moment to spare, could you please define this as clear as a bell to me. No hurry, but maybe before next season (you have a couple of months yet, hee, hee ;) :) :). I would like to have them on my hives when I put the screened bottomboards back on for the summer. Beautiful day, beautiful life. Cindi
The slatted rack is normally a seperate item from the bottom board. Make a shim using 1X2 lumber. Center the dowling height wise. Space the dowling so that 1 dowling runs directly underneath the frame above it. A 10 frame hive should have a slatted rack of 10 pieces of dowling (some have suggested using 3/4 or 1 inch PVC pipe, but I hate plastic in a bee hive). Place the rack between the bottom brood box and the SBB. Use a second 1 in place of a queen excluder.
Brian, thanks, getting the picture, I had to read this about 5 times to understand, conceptualizing is not my gig. Go figure that eh? That is how hard it is for me to understand these types of things. So simple for some, so hard for others, like me....hee, haw. Have a wonderful and great day. Cindi
PS. If the dowls run beneath the bottoms of the frames, what happens when the frames are taken out for inspection and then they are put back in but not completely in alignment with the dowl? Can't get that part now, oh brother, woe is me :( :-\ :) :roll: C.
Quote from: Cindi on November 26, 2007, 01:14:13 AM
Brian, thanks, getting the picture, I had to read this about 5 times to understand, conceptualizing is not my gig. Go figure that eh? That is how hard it is for me to understand these types of things. So simple for some, so hard for others, like me....hee, haw. Have a wonderful and great day. Cindi
PS. If the dowls run beneath the bottoms of the frames, what happens when the frames are taken out for inspection and then they are put back in but not completely in alignment with the dowl? Can't get that part now, oh brother, woe is me :( :-\ :) :roll: C.
exact alignment is not necessary. What is important is that the dowling run parallel to the frames and so that the spacing of the dowling allows for debrie and mites to fall down and through the SBB. The bees use the dowling as expantion room when the internal temp of the hive rises instead of bearding on the outside. They also use it as a platform for circulating the air through the hive instead of blocking the entrance and it works as an extra barrier that outside invaders must negotiate thereby helping the bees be more protective of their home and creates a thermal air barrier that essentially helps in insolating the hive.
Cindi,
I am embarrassed to admit that posting photos has so far proved difficult. Several guys here have offered to assit so I will have to take them up on the offer one of these days. But, as Brian states, perfect parallel alignment is not important; placing the dowels so that they end up an 1/8" or so to either side of the vertical plane of the frames above seems to not matter as long as there is still room for air to freely circulate, debris to fall unimpeded and bees to move.
As for the thermal barrier: I was initially skeptical but last winter I forgot to replace the inserts in my sbb's. The latter part of the winter was extremely cold here (sub zero F. at night on occasion) and the bees did fine, They appeared to utilize the full space of the lower box which they would have avoided had it been too cold. Note that commercially made slatted racks usually have a solid section at the front that supposedly addresse this alleged claim for cold air permeating the region of the slatted rack. I believe this is unecessary.
They definately form a temp barrier. It acts as an air baffle. Similar to eaves on a house. My bees will lay right to the front edge of a board starting earlier in the spring than the hive that didn't have a SBB. It means you'll be ready for the earliest of flows or splits sooner. I have not tried Brians round version ,but use betterbees version. I also haven't tried using one above the brood chamber. I will probably try it this summer. I can see why it would help "cure" the honey making it go more quickly, leaving extra time for more honey production. I'll give it whirl this year.
The only use I've found for queen excluders is as a drain for cut comb honey before putting it in a box!
I use both slatted racks and SBB on each hive and it makes a huge difference in ventilation for the hives.
Linda T in Atlanta
Linda
Do you use slatted racks on the bottom and above the brood super? I am now thinking about them.
Annette
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#excluders
Annette,
I only use the slatted rack above the SBB - not at the top of the hive, like Brian does. I bought them for ventilation and the bees hang out there - it made such a difference in the bees' bearding and my naive peace of mind when I thought they wanted to swarm that I now order a slatted rack every time I buy a new hive configuration.
After reading Michael's page link, I remember that I once used a queen excluder in a hive when I had two queens and I wanted to prove it by leaving the two parts of the hive separated by the queen excluder to see if after a week, there was new brood. In fact there was and I did have two queens but the hive failed in the end and I believe that the bees killed both queens or they each otherwise died.
The lesson was that when I added the queen excluder, I should have left the hive exactly as I had found it - honey bound in the bottom. Instead as I added the queen excluder, I also cleared out the honey frames between the two queens. Then the bees from the bottom box had access to the bees in the top box through the queen excluder and killed the "new" queen.
Linda T in Atlanta with so much beekeeping yet to learn
Thank you for the responses, ya'll. I think I am getting the picture now, hard for me, but getting it.
The dowels are situated in the middle of the shim, horizontally, parallel to the frames. So this means that above the dowels, there is a space, the frame bottoms do not come close to resting on the dowels. This is where the bees rest and have extra room? I think this is the final part of the picture that I need to understand, but almost there, :) :) Have a wonderful and great day. Cindi
Cindi,
Sounds like you're on the mark. There is space for the bees above and below the dowels. I use 1" wooden dowels (rather expensive unfortunately) now centered on a shim frame that is 1 3/4" high. I made my first ones with a 1 3/8" shim using 3/4" dowels and that seemed fine but I have since deferred to Brian's design. Either way it worked and I never had burr comb issues.
I prefer the slatted rack to the screened bottom board as they not only handle the bearding/ventilation issues, but help maintain a warmer and higher humidity brood chamber which is a less ideal environment for varroa and also leads to a bigger/faster Spring build up.
There are good plans to build your own here -> http://www.beesource.com/plans/bottomrack.htm
I had good success with these on standard wooden Langstroth.
I have since moved to a Killion/Miller based design sized to fit polystyrene hives. I like these because I can easily install my night light heaters.
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/2745-2/IMG_0649.JPG) (http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/2744-1/IMG_0649.JPG)
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/2743-2/IMG_0648.JPG) (http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/2742-1/IMG_0648.JPG)
As far as queen excluders, I also use them and find them quite useful. Not for honey production, but for "including" new swarms and for queen rearing. It is a good idea to have 1 or 2 on hand as they do come in handy from time to time.
Rob, very nice pictures, thank you for posting. I looked at the Beesource site, oh brother, now what!!!!!
But here we go again. Ask 10 beekeepers and question and you will get 10 different answers, hee, hee ;) :) :) :)
Rob it appears that the slats in the slatted bottomboard that you are using go across the hive, not lengthwise to the frame.
Which is the best method, across or parallel? Maybe someone should do a poll to see which is more used. I don't know how, so if anyone feels so, do so. These things are making a confused woman even more confused.
Just when I thought I was getting the hang of how to make or use solid bottomboards. Oh brother.....back to the drawing board again. have a great and wonderful AND....beautiful day. Cindi
Across was the standard until screened bottom boards came into favor and someone figured rotating the slats parallel to the frames would be less of a hindrance to dropping mites. That of course assumes you get the slats under the frames. If you get your frames skewed or 9vs.10, the slats would actually catch all the mites. :-\
Although mites falling thru a SBB seems great in principle, the actual amount and benefit seems to be debatable. Since I don't use SBB, it is not an issue for me. I prefer the across design as it block the direct draft of the front entrance and also disperses the traffic flow away from the front corners of the frames.
Rob, hmmmm....so much food for thought.
When I began to winter my colonies, I removed the screened bottomboards and replaced them with solid bottomboards. I did this so I could perform the oxalic acid vapourizing, it cannot be performed with screen bottomboards, unless they are somehow tightly closed up. I had enough solid bottomboards for all the colonies.
Now, I think that I am going to have to get into more research again over this winter regarding solid versus screened bottomboards.
You say that you use solid, and the slotted racks and you like that style. I am interested in this concept, because leaving the solid bottomboards on permanently and using slotted racks would allow for easy vapourizing of the colonies any time that mites seem to get up there in numbers. I love to monitor mites and count them (hee, hee) ;) :) :) (that would annoy Finsky terribly, right Finsky?? ;) :). So I have fun inserting sticky boards and seeing how many mites fall off them. It is a good exercise to keep my counting skills honed :) :)
So much studying to do about the bees, but I am on a quest for knowledge, and this I shall always do. Have a wonderful and great day, love our life we live. Cindi
about 4 years ago I bought one from betterbee, I took it apart and used it as a patern and made 3 more, I have never used one yet, going to this coming year but going to make some more this winter!!
Robo, this inline rack does all that you were talking about right, it protects the front of the hive from drafts and breaks up the traffic flow, or am I misunderstanding you?
(http://www.betterbee.com/images/slattedrack.jpg)
by the way nice pics Robo, looks like a phone line running into the hive, I thought you would have got your bee's cable instead of dial-up, bet they grip about the slow connection ;)
I use the betterbee. I think its inportant to run the bars parralell to the frames. Brians design uses round dowels which would shed mites no matter their orientation, but I believe he runs them parrallel to the frames too.
Quote from: KONASDAD on November 28, 2007, 11:46:59 AM
I use the betterbee. I think its inportant to run the bars parralell to the frames. Brians design uses round dowels which would shed mites no matter their orientation, but I believe he runs them parrallel to the frames too.
The main thing is to use round stock for the slats and run them in the same direction as the frames even if they don't line up perfectly. Konasdad is correct in that round lets the mites roll off the slats, fall throught the SBB, and out of the hive.