hey folks...i went and visited my hive today. last time i was out there was probably a month ago. during that time, i replaced two supers that i had harvested so they could clean out the leftover honey, and i left a large brood box from a failed hive on there that i had added when i took those supers off originally, so that they'd still have room in the hive.
but when i came back today, there was a huge pile of dead bees in front of the hive. i immediately suspected that the old broodbox had some weird disease in it that i now had introduced to my functioning hive, but that didn't seem to be the case after opening the hive. there were definitely a few dead bees here or there on the inside, but almost nothing was amiss. still have very solid brood pattern, and newborn bees weren't deformed. a lot bees were acting a little twitchy - they seemed to be overly cleaning themselves and one another. but they were not hostile at all, and it would have seemed a normal visit if the dead bees weren't out front.
the only thing weird i noticed were a few foreign bees, such as one that was completely black and had a more tapered abdomen, and one that appeared to be a honeybee, but had a completely dark abdomen (as in, almost no stripes).
anyone have any idea what is happening? are they under attack?
(http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/66/0/12819239/n12819239_34582471_5431.jpg)
(http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/66/0/12819239/n12819239_34582472_6151.jpg)
(http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/66/0/12819239/n12819239_34582473_6849.jpg)
Yep, with that much exposed honey there was most probably an attempt to robe, hence the pile of bee bodies
Steve
My problem with thinking it was robbing is the month time period that has passed. Robbing should have taken place shortly after putting the supers back while the odor was strong. Bee bodies don't last a week on the ground here in Fl.
Pesticide poisoning? Did the brood you put on there hatch?
we were worried about pesticides also. i've never really thought about it before...hope the honey's safe.
but no, the box we put on was just empty frames with foundation. no brood...just wanted them to have space.
That type of pile is more indictative of a pesticide poisoning. Lucky it was just a few instead of a heavy blow. Your bees seem to have righted themselves.
is there any reason to be concerned about the safety of the honey? it was easily harvested a month ago, but i don't know if bees died from eating stores or from foraging.
If the stores were contaminated, your emerging brood would not survive and the hive would significantly weaken if fed from stores. I would look for recently dieing bees (a lot, not just the normal few that you normally see). Of course, you can't wait a month to go look.
Are those black ones really honey bees?
Are those black ones really honey bees?
Yes, and we have them in the west too.
Ernie
I pulled 3 brood frames from a healthy hive and let them sit in an empty nuc for 24 hours. I then added a queen I have purchased. The frames had about 50-60 bees from the old hive. As the bees emerge most are dieing within 36-48 hours. I don't see mites and the old hive is doing very well. They are not eating syrup (1-1) or honey or pollen patty. They move around slowly and die.
The queen seems to be healthy and is surrounded by about 100 bees in the center of the frames.
Does anyone have a solution to this? I have scoured the net and am at a loss. My only thought is that is has been chilly in SW Ohio this week, but I brought the nuc inside at night.
You need to move nurses with broodframes when you make splits. They probably got chilled. They need to stay at a certain temperature. Good Luck. G
biggrahm, thanks for your response. I checked the nuc about an hour ago. There were about 5-600 bees surrounding the queen. So my numbers seem to be increasing. Is this a hopeless situation? Should I cut my losses and capture the queen and start all over. I have two strong healthy hives to draw from.
Im new, second year, but im pretty sure a seasoned veteran would tell you to give them a frame of open brood with accompanying nurses and shake the nurses from another frame from your strongest hive in as well. No Its not a lost cause. Good Luck. G :chop:
When you shake those bees off make sure the queen isn't on the frame you're shaking. I try to find her on one frame then shake a different one.
Are you certain that these dead bees are not drones? It is about that time of year where they get kicked out.
Quote from: JackM on August 18, 2014, 08:50:31 AM
Are you certain that these dead bees are not drones? It is about that time of year where they get kicked out.
He said the frames had 50-60 bees, I assumed he didnt transfer the attending nurses. Thats why I suspect chilled brood. G :chop:
The nuc has increased in size and is cleaning the dead bees out. I have 7 1/4 frames with 3 of them now about 2/3 full of bees on each side. So some of the brood are surviving. I have two frames completely empty that were added after I put the queen in, I did not expect any activity on the empty frames.
I noticed today some of the bees that had emerged had no wings. They sort of appeared to be emerging prematurely. They were most often carried out and dropped nearby.
The cold may have affected them, but I am wondering if the healthy bees are just culling out the sick. Typically, what percentage of newly emerged brood survive? I put a living but dieing bee under a strong magnifying glass and found no evidence of varroa mites. I don't know if I could see tracheal mites. The ones that are dieing are straw colored and cannot walk well or fly. They roll over on their backs and seem to spasm and struggle.
Today they started flying out of the nuc in larger numbers and ate 1:1 syrup. Some, few, were eating the pollen patty I made.
I'm hoping the nuc stays healthy and the queen is laying.
I put fondant in the nuc this evening because I don't want to attract wasps and other bees to the hive. Is there something else I can feed them? Other than nature taking it course is there anything else I can do?
I can't tell if the dead bees are drones. They are all small.
I thought if I took bees from another hive they would kill the queen. I can get another brood frame and shake it in but my hives are an hour away from my home where the nuc is. Is the nuc too far along now or is it still a good time to add brood/nurse bees?
Quote from: jvalentour on August 17, 2014, 11:00:41 PM
biggrahm, thanks for your response. I checked the nuc about an hour ago. There were about 5-600 bees surrounding the queen. So my numbers seem to be increasing. Is this a hopeless situation? Should I cut my losses and capture the queen and start all over. I have two strong healthy hives to draw from.
JV,
Since the number of bee is increasing, I would not add more bees. Is the queen laying eggs?
My biggest concern is what is killing your bees. Is it what you are feeding them?
You mentioned it was chilly. How cold is chilly?
Why are you feeding them pollen patties. Is there a dearth in your area? If there is pollen being brought to the hive, I would remove it. Down here, pollen patties are just brood nests for small hive beetles. One good SHB can fill your hive full of SHBs from that pollen patty.
Saw,
They are eating 1:1 sugar water I sat out about 20 yards from the nuc. I put fondant in the nuc last night. I am concerned about raiding bees. I plan to end the sugar water tonight because it seems to be attracting unwanted guests. Besides they have fondant inside the nuc. If they don't eat the fondant, should I just pour 1:1 sugar water in the nuc bottom? I do not have a feeder at this site.
I pulled the pollen patty, it is no longer available. It was homemade and only available 24 hours. So, I think they started dieing before they started eating if that makes sense.
I was trying a little of everything because the first week they appeared to be starving. They did not even eat honey.
As of Tuesday AM there is a lot of exterior activity and more dead being removed.
I will check tonight if the queen is laying.
Cold means 47 degrees.
If the queen is laying I think they have a chance, I just need to feed them properly. (unless the comb is contaminated with something, but the hive they came from is healthy).
Your thoughts?
First of all, I would go back to the person who sold you the bees.
If that is not an option, then:
Your feeder is too close to your hive for Itialian's. Bees will find your hive while looking for the feeder. If you are open feeding. You are feeding everyone else's bees.
Do not use an entrance feeder. They really creat robbing.
If you pour 1:1 in your hive, which I would not do, bee sure to put grass in it to keep from drowning your bees.
Leave the fondant in. Your best bet.
The comb is probably not your problem. It encapsulates most problems.
Jim
Jim has alot more experience than I do but I am still suspecting chilled brood, with the increase coming from a stage of brood that was unaffected. Jim, you think with 5-600 bees in the nuc he shouldnt add bees? I dont understand. Help me out. Thanks G :chop:
Quote from: biggraham610 on August 19, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
Jim has alot more experience than I do but I am still suspecting chilled brood, with the increase coming from a stage of brood that was unaffected. Jim, you think with 5-600 bees in the nuc he shouldnt add bees? I dont understand. Help me out. Thanks G :chop:
BigG,
That is due to experiences I have had the last 2 years. I have watched 2 different queens go through the winter with a fist size ball of bees in my observation hive and by the end of December they looked like they were half that size. They both recovered to swarm strength in the spring.
I have been having. Trouble with queens not surviving their maiden flights and have combine them with queen right hives. Several of them then failed usually due to robbing or absconding.
Jim
Thanks Jim, that makes sense. G :chop:
Saw,
The hive I pulled the brood from is doing very well. Something must have happened from the farm to the house one hour away, or cool weather we had once I got to the house. They were transported in a wire nuc box I started the healthy hive from in May. Truck windows were open 80 degree day, doubt they were over heated.
Do the descriptions of the dead and dieing bees give you a clue? Straw color no or little black, some missing wings, spasms, can't walk.
Could it just be the cold on the outer frames and the inner frames are hatching normally? Then the healthy bees toss out the weak? I do have a lot of healthy bees now.
Other factors to consider: Too few nurse bees (50-60), in wire nuc 3 days before I could build a good wood nuc, carried inside the house and outside the house because of cool 47-50 degree nights.
I'd like not to repeat this error on my next split.
At what point do I pull the plug, capture the queen and start over? I have two healthy hives to draw from?
Quote from: jvalentour on August 20, 2014, 12:31:36 AM
Saw,
The hive I pulled the brood from is doing very well. Something must have happened from the farm to the house one hour away, or cool weather we had once I got to the house. They were transported in a wire nuc box I started the healthy hive from in May. Truck windows were open 80 degree day, doubt they were over heated.
Do the descriptions of the dead and dieing bees give you a clue? Straw color no or little black, some missing wings, spasms, can't walk.
Could it just be the cold on the outer frames and the inner frames are hatching normally? Then the healthy bees toss out the weak? I do have a lot of healthy bees now.
Other factors to consider: Too few nurse bees (50-60), in wire nuc 3 days before I could build a good wood nuc, carried inside the house and outside the house because of cool 47-50 degree nights.
I'd like not to repeat this error on my next split.
At what point do I pull the plug, capture the queen and start over? I have two healthy hives to draw from?
It really sounds like the dead bees were hurt by the transit or chilled especially if you had a wire nuc. Is your queen laying as much as the bees can cover. An experienced q will not lay more than they can cover. If it seems to be growing I would let them bee.every 3 weeks they should bee doubling in size. Keep in mind, every time you inspect them you set them back. They have to fix all of the damage from smoke and damaged comb.
Jim
Jim,
I think you are right.
What are your thoughts about adding another brood frame?
Joe
Quote from: jvalentour on August 21, 2014, 11:11:30 PM
Jim,
I think you are right.
What are your thoughts about adding another brood frame?
Joe
That will probably help a lot but you need the bees to go with it but if you do not have a good flow on you need an extra step.
Take a frame of brood and place it in a empty super cover it partially just to protect it from the sun. Leave it sit for about 15 minutes. This will allow the field bees to go back to their hive and leave the nurse bees on the frame. Then add it to your nuc. You do not want the field bees finding a new source of food in a dearth.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on August 22, 2014, 05:54:07 AM
Take a frame of brood and place it in a empty super cover it partially just to protect it from the sun. Leave it sit for about 15 minutes. This will allow the field bees to go back to their hive and leave the nurse bees on the frame. Then add it to your nuc. You do not want the field bees finding a new source of food in a dearth.
Jim[/quote]
This is what I love about these sites. learn something new everyday. While splitting, I had just been taking the frames of brood(from 3 diffrent hives) and slapping them straight into a nuc. I had noticed the fighting going on but I thoght that was just from stirring up 3 hives. Ummmm, me thinks my spring splits will go a little easier now. Thanks Jim!
No problem Santa. Just passing on what I have learned the hard way. :?
Jim
You have that problem in the spring when making splits during a heavy flow Jim? Or just when things are a little light on the flow side? I hadnt noticed but seems like a great Idea. Thanks. G :chop:
Quote from: biggraham610 on August 22, 2014, 10:36:54 PM
You have that problem in the spring when making splits during a heavy flow Jim? Or just when things are a little light on the flow side? I hadnt noticed but seems like a great Idea. Thanks. G :chop:
No, not during a flow.
During a heavy flow, the bees prefer nectar to honey. During a dearth or light flow, every hive is a food source.
I have cut a hive out of a tool box in the middle of my apiary, during the middle of a flow, honey all over the place with absolutely no robbing.
On the other end of the spectrum, I have had to stop pulling capped honey due to severe robbing even with lots of smoke and Beedun to mask the smell of honey.
Jim
Jim,
The reason I brought this nuc to my house in SE Ohio is that there are a lot of irrigated homeowner flowers in the area. There is drought in SE Indiana and SW Ohio.
You say to add a brood frame from my healthy hive, agreed. Can do.
The Nuc I have built, will it accept nurse bees? I'd rather bring the brood frame only. There are about 500-900 bees on the frames now. They are 7- 21 days old.
My nuc is alive, barely. Raided frequently, put a towel over the entrance to stop robbing.
I have bees cleaning, bees bringing in pollen. Queen alive. Feeding fondant from top.
This Sunday i will visit my Indiana hives. Can pull what ever I need.
Your thoughts?
I think this nuc can make it, I have learned a lot from you and the thread.
Thank you all.
Quote from: jvalentour on August 23, 2014, 01:30:48 AM
Jim,
The reason I brought this nuc to my house in SE Ohio is that there are a lot of irrigated homeowner flowers in the area. There is drought in SE Indiana and SW Ohio.
You say to add a brood frame from my healthy hive, agreed. Can do.
The Nuc I have built, will it accept nurse bees? I'd rather bring the brood frame only. There are about 500-900 bees on the frames now. They are 7- 21 days old.
My nuc is alive, barely. Raided frequently, put a towel over the entrance to stop robbing.
I have bees cleaning, bees bringing in pollen. Queen alive. Feeding fondant from top.
This Sunday i will visit my Indiana hives. Can pull what ever I need.
Your thoughts?
I think this nuc can make it, I have learned a lot from you and the thread.
Thank you all.
JV,
Nurse bees can bee moved to a new hive with no problem, it is the field bees that will return to their original hive but not if their hive is over 2 miles away. Since you are moving them long distance, just take a brood frame and bees, put it in a box full of frames, to keep the frames from moving inside of the box, take it home to your nuc. It will bee their new home because they will not bee able to go home. If you have a dearth on in the apiary, you will have to bee quick or robbing will start and your bees will bee aggressive even to you. If they are just brood boxes, pull one or 2 frames if they are strong, close the lid, check the frames to make sure you do not have your queen, put them in a nuc, lock the frames in place with a wedge, to keep the bees from being crushed between frames bouncing together on the road and put them in your nuc.
Make sure they are locked in but have good ventilation like a screen bottom board or a screen top board.
Jim
Quote from: jvalentour on August 23, 2014, 01:30:48 AM
Jim,
The reason I brought this nuc to my house in SE Ohio is that there are a lot of irrigated homeowner flowers in the area. There is drought in SE Indiana and SW Ohio.
You say to add a brood frame from my healthy hive, agreed. Can do.
The Nuc I have built, will it accept nurse bees? I'd rather bring the brood frame only. There are about 500-900 bees on the frames now. They are 7- 21 days old.
My nuc is alive, barely. Raided frequently, put a towel over the entrance to stop robbing.
I have bees cleaning, bees bringing in pollen. Queen alive. Feeding fondant from top.
This Sunday i will visit my Indiana hives. Can pull what ever I need.
Your thoughts?
I think this nuc can make it, I have learned a lot from you and the thread.
Thank you all.
The reason I had earlier suggested adding frames with nurses was to boost the hive numbers, therefore freeing up the queen to lay more because she would have the attendants needed to care for the brood. This in theory will grow the hive much more quickly. Good Luck. G
An update on my dead bees in new nuc.
Since my last post I have added a brood frame, with attendants, and fondant. To prevent robbing I added a wet towel to the front of the hive.
I opened the nuc today and found a lot of dead bees and maggots on the bottom and in one frame. I pulled the frames and washed out the nuc with a garden hose. I started to pick out the maggots in the cells and returned the five frames to the box. The robber bees were so bad I had to leave and get some protection. I am not sure if the maggots were fly or bee larva, but, since they were not inside a covered cell, I suspect they are fly.
I also saw a black beetle about the size of a lady bug.
Should I just shake the bees off the frame with the maggots and remove the frame?
Any good ideas to keep pests and robbers out of the nuc?
The queen is alive, I am not sure she is laying.
sounds like small hive beetle larvae. I dont know an answer other than high bee numbers. Jim deals with them alot, hope he will chime in. Good Luck. G :chop:
Quote from: jvalentour on August 28, 2014, 08:22:10 PM
An update on my dead bees in new nuc.
Since my last post I have added a brood frame, with attendants, and fondant. To prevent robbing I added a wet towel to the front of the hive.
I opened the nuc today and found a lot of dead bees and maggots on the bottom and in one frame. I pulled the frames and washed out the nuc with a garden hose. I started to pick out the maggots in the cells and returned the five frames to the box. The robber bees were so bad I had to leave and get some protection. I am not sure if the maggots were fly or bee larva, but, since they were not inside a covered cell, I suspect they are fly.
I also saw a black beetle about the size of a lady bug.
Should I just shake the bees off the frame with the maggots and remove the frame?
Any good ideas to keep pests and robbers out of the nuc?
The queen is alive, I am not sure she is laying.
They are definitely not fly larvae. They are probably SHB larvae and maybe some lesser moth larvae.
When you find them in the bottom of the hive it means the bees removed them from the comb. That is good. This usually happens after a major disturbance which causes the bees to stop containing the SHBs while they are fixing the hive or if they have swarmed. Usually happens on the third day after the disturbance.
It is important that the bees do not have more drawn comb than they can protect.
To keep the robbers out of this hive, take a long piece of 3/4" x 3/4" wood and make a frame the size of the front of the hive with an opening at the top. Place #8 wire over it and place it over the front of your hive. The occupants figure out how to get out but the robbers go where they can smell the entrance.
Jim
Thanks.
I put in an oil trap last night, will install screen and pull out a frame today.
Quote from: jvalentour on August 30, 2014, 08:32:18 AM
Thanks.
I put in an oil trap last night, will install screen and pull out a frame today.
That will help a lot.
Jim
reduce the entrance and feed
this thread strted in 2008--are you kiding me-- 8-) :lol: :? like she sid just DO IT ALREADY---RDY-B
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on October 12, 2008, 01:03:09 AM
That type of pile is more indictative of a pesticide poisoning. Lucky it was just a few instead of a heavy blow. Your bees seem to have righted themselves.
We had that down here 2 years ago only wiped out my 2 full double deeps and hear 7 others in the neighborhood
the consensus is pesticides applied during a bloom
what a mess dead girls 3 inches deep
RDY,
I resurrected the thread while I was researching a problem I was having. It was my first post. Should have started a new thread.
To all who advised. I couldn't get to the healthy hives fast enough to add to the nuc. The queen and remaining bees left the nuc. I learned a lot, thanks to all.