Up here, in my part of Alaska, the weather turned crummy about six weeks ago. Six weeks ago, all my hives had 30-40 pounds of honey stored up. As of last week, they had eaten all of it. I've put feeders with 2:1 syrup on all hives, but they do not seem to be taking it at a rate where they can reasonably prepare for the upcoming loooong winter.
Current daytime highs are in mid-50s and nighttime lows are in mid-40s. This may have a lot to do with how fast they're moving the syrup into the combs? I can't very well cull the "weak" hives without stores since NONE of them have stores and I'm not prepared for a 100% loss ... again.
Anyway, should I start making or buying fondant/candy in preparation for shutting them up in another three or four weeks when the temps will drop another 10 degrees (or more)? Or should I keep liquid feed on them even though they are not taking it?
Let others give more suggestions on what you should do, but I do have my own suggestion.
I give my hives baggie feeders at different times of the year depending on the situation, and the good thing about the baggie feeders are you give them the warm syrup right on top of the super inside where the bees are so they can get to it really easily. If they were to take the syrup this way, then they would go through the baggies very quickly and you would have to stay on top of this.
Good luck and I feel for you. Hopefully you can find a solution.
Race Horse: Like Annette, I've used plastic bags to feed my girls both in the early spring and also during the fall. If fact, I've tried to minimize their dependency on stored honey to the highest degree possible. The girls seem to take to the sugar water placed in the plastic bags. The bags are easy to replace and are usually emptied in just a few days. You might have to do that all winter.
There are other approaches which have you using an empty brood box and a much large feeder placed in the brood box. This entails filling the empty spaces in the brood box with some sort of insulating material, such as dry leaves. I haven't used this approach, but I suspect others on the forum have, when faced with your situation. They may be able to provide you guidance.
Best of luck on feeding your girls thru the winter.
Regards,
Tucker1
How many, and what style colonies are you running? What type of feeders are you using? I just looked at your weather online and all I can really say is- ummmm???... At this point it's not fondant OR syrup, if you are determined to keep your existing stock I'd suggest you try to stuff them with food in any way possible. That means put some candy/fondant over them AND feed them warm heavy syrup often. If it's cold out, the syrup must be warm or they won't take it. Anyone have experience with getting bee food in the empty combs- pour in some dry sugar and mist it with water to make slush or get it to stick perhaps? I've never tried it but might if I found myself in your situation.
Reduce hive sizes to the minimum, place them in sun but out of the wind. Dollar-wise, it may be cheaper at this point to let them perish and restock the hives next spring as you're looking at a lot of time and sugar that may not actually do any good. On the other hand should one abandon starving livestock (including bees) simply because it's not economical for the shepherd? I hope you find something that will work and allow you to maintain your bee stock, but at the same time I think you should prepare yourself for any outcome, including a 100% loss. Best of luck.
Ben
Maybe try adding a deep hive box full of white granulated sugar over a sheet of newspaper on top of the hive, making it the top box in the stack. Put the outer lid cover on top of that. The sugar will absorb moisture and will provide a layer of insulation and will provide winter feed.
I wouldn't feed to much syrup. It doesn't sound like your weather is too conducive for them to have time to thicken it up, especially the weak ones. Food with too much water content (ie. syrup) is bad news in the winter and will most often lead to dysentery. As others have suggested, I would get them set up with either sugar boards or granulated sugar.
Quote from: BenC on September 16, 2009, 01:27:05 AM
How many, and what style colonies are you running? What type of feeders are you using?
I have remaining four VTBH in Warre dimensions and two langs. The langs are very weak and will likely die regardless of my actions. All hives have Brother Adam type feeders set above them.
QuoteReduce hive sizes to the minimum, place them in sun but out of the wind. Dollar-wise, it may be cheaper at this point to let them perish and restock the hives next spring as you're looking at a lot of time and sugar that may not actually do any good.
Hive sizes have already been reduced to the least number of boxes still capable of housing all of the bees. Dollarwise, it is FAR cheaper to feed them. After freight, Alaska beeks are paying well over $100 for a package of bees and I've been getting five pound bags of granulated sugar for around $2.00/ea on sale or $3.50 when not on sale.
I suppose I will place shim with fondant or candy below the feeders and see what happens. Any estimates on how much fondant/candy will be needed to supply them for the whole winter? I was estimating close to 80 pounds honey, but fondant/candy/dry sugar quantities must be different due to lower water contents, but how much different?
I live in Missouri, and weather conditions are FAR different. But I nursed a late swarm through last winter with one medium of drawn comb, and one medium of granulated sugar on top of it. Probally 30 lbs of sugar, I also threw in a pollen patty.
They survived and built up fine this spring.
I just layed down a newspaper, folded it to fit inside the frameless medium, left about a half inch gap on one side, poured the sugar in slowly, misting it with a water bottle to allow it to crust. They finished the winter with some of it left over.. Maybe five lbs worth. It's worth a shot. $20 in sugar vs. $100 for a package.
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I live in Finland at the level of Alaska Anchorage.
I have nursed bees 47 years.
I am just feeding them for winter. One box hive takes in 2 days the winter food and
2 box langstroth hive takes in about one week.
If weather is cold, bees gather themselves in cluster and do bot rise into feeding box.
You may put some honey first into the feeder to start eating.
The ultimate system is that I soak combs into 65% syrup , let them drip a while and then I put them ito the hive.
If you have insulated walls, it saves 1/3 of winter food. The upper insulation must bee thicker that it is warm and no condensation happens over the cluster.
I use 25 kg sugar for 2 box hives.
It is absolutly necessary that you feed them quickly and no dry sugar or fondant. If feeding is prolonged,
they start brooding again.
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Your weather is now about +10C and rainy. No problem with hive feeding. But later temp goes under freezing point.
http://www.accuweather.com/forecast-us.asp?partner=netweather&zipcode=99664&metric=1
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You may lift hives later into some shelter for ther worst frost.
You may use 3 W terrarium heater in the hive, so it helps them to be alive and hives dry.
I have wintered 2 frame colonies with terrarium heater.
Or you bend a long 15 W heater cable so that each get 3 W heat from caple.
Price is about 20 $
Thankfully I've never had to deal with the kind of weather you have but I did have a hive that ran very low on stores last year. I made fondent and molded it into empth frames. By late spring they had eaten it all and built fondationless comb in the frames.
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When I now feed hives, they stores will be enough to May.
In autumn hives spend only 1/2 kg a month. In spring, when they have brood, hive spend several kilos food a month.
Quote from: Paraplegic Racehorse on September 16, 2009, 12:43:42 PM
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I suppose I will place shim with fondant or candy below the feeders and see what happens.
Don't do that.
In Finland what I know, everyone use sugar syrup to feed hives.
No one use the methid what Robo says, Fondant is used in spring after cleansing flight.
'
There are several beekeepers at the level of Polar Circle.
We have not alternatives to play all kind of games, but hives survive very well.
For wintering it is essential that the stock react on local level and start winter rest.
If they contiue brooding they will die automatically.
Another thing is that if you bye every year a new bee package, its build up is so slow that
it will not get honey during summer.
Our yield season is only one month. During that time the hive gets 50-100 kg honey.
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Now, when I feed them, they are in total peace up to Marsh when they make cleansing flight (6 months). Then I weight with hand, do they have enough food. Snow melts in April.
So, bees live with sugar from September to April = 8 months. At the beginning of May willows start blooming and brooding starts.
In November we give oxalic acid trickling to hives against varroa. It takes 30 seconds per hive.
-for your climate, check out dick allen's thoughts (specifically on open feeding heavy syrup) here !!oops I can not post links so you are going to have to type it in yourself : www honeybeeworld com/misc/syrup/feed.htm I personally like/use this approach, but some do not. with only a few hives you should not have to worry too much about the biggest concern w/ open feeding, spreading disease. make sure it is covered from the rain, also plenty of room for bees to access it= no fighting, and bait the area with scrap/ burr comb/ honey to get them interested in the first place.
-I personally would not feed too much syrup of any type (in the hive) if the temps are below 40 but yes, a baggie of warm syrup over the cluster will do wonders in an emergency situation.
-combine the weak langs into one/ or two hives, shake all the bees and consolidate combs as best you can, they may still have a chance
-look for some info from Keith Malone from AK (wasilla?) on feeding posts online possibly to bee-l or he may have web info up, he promotes (from what I recall) top insulation as a major important factor. I strongly agree, I have been using foam board overhanging a few inches in all directions on top of flat (migratory) covers, I feel this helps. I am also trying reflect-x (bubble foil) under migratory tops. You want the top to be so well insulated that condensation does not form there, it forms on the sides of the box instead... you also NEED top vent somehow. I don't wrap but if you do make sure you have good ventilation. i think kieth malone wraps in reflect-x (as you can tell i like this stuff). but make sure the top is MORE insulated...
-dry sugar can work but not all hives will take it in my experience. I would NOT suggest a whole empty deep on top , try to minimize the empty space it is one thing if the outside temp is 30 degrees but quite another @ -30. I would suggest a spacer rim (could be cut from a super) about 2-3" or possibly shallow super. They will eat up through newspaper and sugar will form a "crust" on the outside. If you are able to remove the outer crust and put down a single new sheet of newspaper and refill when ever they need it, I feel that it helps if this sugar is as close to the bees as possible.
-your best source of information is going to be the beekeepers in eastern canada, they have put a lot of work into this.
Quote from: Finski on September 16, 2009, 04:06:37 PM
No one use the methid what Robo says, Fondant is used in spring after cleansing flight.
Finski, I don't feed Fondant, just white sugar. Many folks here feed straight sugar with good success. Why add moisture to a hive? Especially those not strong enough to dry it.
Quote from: bfriendly on September 16, 2009, 04:56:24 PM
-for your climate, -look for some info from Keith Malone from AK (wasilla?) on feeding posts online possibly to
-your best source of information is going to be the beekeepers in eastern canada, they have put a lot of work into this.
Bfriendly, you comments make no sence and no experience . No hive will your teaching over winter on 60 north latitude.
This is same BS like years before. Thanks pallls.
Wasting our time when when arguing simple questions.
And Dry sugar. Very personal.
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Finski, suggesting that I put liquid feed on the hives when I have already stated that they are not taking the liquid feed I have already put onto the hives is not helpful. Generally, I have found your posts to be informative and useful but, in this instance, I must request that you either abstain from comment or read the descriptions of my situation more thoroughly so that you may provide useful advice in aiding me rather than confusing the issue for others.
BFriendly, I don't run deep Langstroth hives and probably never will. Four of these are VTBH hives in the Warre dimensions and the other two are 10-frame 1/2-depth Dadant boxes (N. American beeks call these "Medium Supers" even though they are properly called "Dadant Supers").
I'm not concerned about adding water content to the hive. Both Kieth Malone (Alaska) and Dennis Murrel (Wyoming) have similar results when observing overwintering hives without top venting: the bees use the water on the top board to their advantage - assuming the beekeeper does not use that most useless piece of equipment: "inner cover".
I suppose, since the bees are not taking liquid feed, I'll put some fondant on the hives. Any recommendation as to how much? I was guessing they would need about 80 pounds honey stored to last through until May. That's more than farther inland and farther north because my winter temps are warmer: hovering around 0C (+/- 3C) for most of the winter, meaning the bees will be in less of a cold-induced torpor. If honey is 80% sugars (4:1 sugar:water) and fondant is 90% sugars (9:1 sugar:water, after boiling), then I should basically plan on about half my estimated honey-weight, in fondant, to get them through?
Quote from: Paraplegic Racehorse on September 17, 2009, 05:53:08 AM
I suppose, since the bees are not taking liquid feed, I'll put some fondant on the hives.
There are many northern beekeepers that have had success using dry sugar. Robo's "sugar boards" and "sugar frames" (http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/)
have several advantages. Fondant is quite a bit more work and I don't see any advantage to fondant.
What is the advantage of using fondant?
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You have your own tricks. Keep them. I do not weaste our time.
:pop:
Quote from: BoBn on September 17, 2009, 06:39:01 AM
What is the advantage of using fondant?
Water. The water content is the advantage.
Quote from: BjornBee on September 17, 2009, 10:15:14 AM
:pop:
Okay, Mr. Standing-on-the-Sidelines. ;)
Have anything to add? Your winter is colder than mine, but your dearth is shorter. Any recommendations on quantities of semi-dry feed for these girls?
Hey! Let's tone this back down to a useful discussion, everyone is welcome to contribute but no need to fight it out...
I am not trying to disqualify your comments regarding no top vent, ESPECIALLY in cold/ (therefore dry?) climates. Where I keep bees it really doesn't get below freezing for much of the winter. I have had better wintering success on hives with some sort of top vent vs none at all. More recently, I HAVE COME TO THE BELIEF THAT GOOD TOP INSULATION (one form or another) IS USEFUL.
I appreciate your link to bwrangler's web page... I have at times used entrance feeders for water / will try a plexi top this winter to observe for my self!
In many instances I have found a (migratory) top leaking lead to a dead colony come spring.
All I was trying to say with dry sugar (also applies to candy board) is that I have seen situations where some colonies will starve before bridging the 1/2" + gap that they have eaten into a candy board or pile of dry sugar. try to address this, if you can. cheers
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It is sad to see that Paraplegic Racehorse is loosing his hives but he seems to be so stubborn that nothing helps. califordia beekeepers will not help you.
You have tried and that is it! But it is not
In cold years often hive or more have intented to go into winter sleep. They are not interested in sugar feeding.
Another case is that they take very slow, half or other hives, and food is not enoygh. What to do.
In every case I have succeeded to give winter food in.
The main reason is that hive is cold. When night is cold, bees retreet from feeding box and they return in late afternoon when syrup is warm.
Perhaps you have too much free space and bees try to keep brood warm.
1) In cold nights when temp goes down to freezing point, it is better that you do not give syrup before night, because bees do not take it. It only cools there. Give it in the morning +30C warm syrup, and put honey into bee space that robbers come to look what is there.
2) If bees are not interested in syrup and they are in winter cluster, there are methods:
a) Take capped frames from another hives or if you have capped honey, give them.
This method is good to small hives like nucs, whose capping will be slow for cold.
b) Pour syrup into combs of dip combs into syrup. Put that box under the wintering box. I have not seen a hive which will not wake upp from its winter sleep.
It will be quite a mesh in the hive 2 days but they handle syrup however.
To handle dry sugar or "semi dry", bees need drinking water. It does not work in climate where bees will be inside hive all the time 5 months.
they will be sick.
Quote from: BoBn on September 17, 2009, 06:39:01 AM
There are many northern beekeepers that have had success using dry sugar. Robo's "sugar boards" and "sugar frames" (http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/)
have several advantages. Fondant is quite a bit more work and I don't see any advantage to fondant.
Robo is fine feekeeper, but when I look where he lives, it is 42 latitude, which means on Europen map Spain and Italy. The lenghtness of winter is important to bees. Ilive 60 latitude and Italian winterin has not much to do with our wintering or with Alaska.
I have heard no one here who use dry sugar in winter. In spring emergency feeding it is common stuff.
How you give 20 - 25 kg dry sugar to the hive? Put it into water! it takes 2-3 days when it it inside the hive.
The biggest beekeeper here has 3000 hives and lives 50 km from me.
It is serious business here too and not old farts playing ground.
Hi All ~
Very interesting conversation. I'm in Anchorage & the same thing is happening to my hives ~ they're eaten everything they stored. It's amazing since we've had a beautiful, warm, summer. I just started feeding warm syrup in baggies. I should have been doing it since the end of August but I was out of town & life sort of got in the way of my beekeeping.
I've never used the fondant ~ except in decorating cakes :) I had a hive make it through last winter but they had two deeps of stores & in the early spring I fed patties & sugar.
I'm enjoying Finski's information. Thank you for sharing your experience since you are at a similar latitude as Alaska. Last winter I didn't wrap my hives & one made it through the winter. I'm thinking about using some foam board to insulate the sides & top with a top small vent to limit condensation (?).
I'm trying something different every year in the hope of finding what works for me. Just like everyone else :) Lots of opinions & suggestions. Happy Fall! Flygirl!
Quote from: Flygirl on September 18, 2009, 02:58:00 AM
. Last winter I didn't wrap my hives & one made it through the winter. I'm thinking about using some foam board to insulate the sides & top with a top small vent to limit condensation (?).
I'm trying something different every year in the hope of finding what works for me. Just like everyone else :) Lots of opinions & suggestions. Happy Fall! Flygirl!
If you have there polystyrene bee boxes, bye those and bees have a good place for winter and spring build. The you need not wrapping.
If you put 20 mm stryrofoam plates on sides and over inner cover douple isulation, it is enough te. Winter shelter is important.
It is a bad thing that Alaska uses same hive stuff like Florida. Its meaning is greatis in spring development.
We have discussed with D i c k a l l e n from Anhorage in our forum. My opinion is that Alaskas bekeeping is not very advanced.
http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1132603477
Quote from: Flygirl on September 18, 2009, 02:58:00 AM
. It's amazing since we've had a beautiful, warm, summer. I just started feeding warm syrup in baggies. I should have been doing it since the end of August but I was out of town & life sort of got in the way of my beekeeping.
We had splended summer but our main yield did not came. Fireweed was so full of bumlebees that no chance to bees get nectar.
Somehow rape did not gove nectar. 2 years ago we had no bumblebees in flowers.
Raspberry bloomed enormously in June but then in july yield stopped.
I had 4 hives on 30 hectar fireweed area but nothing.
Quote from: Finski on September 18, 2009, 02:19:57 AM
but when I look where he lives, it is 42 latitude, which means on Europen map Spain and Italy. The lenghtness of winter is important to bees. Ilive 60 latitude and Italian winterin has not much to do with our wintering or with Alaska.
Flawed logic.
Our continent is different than your climate. I live at 43,48 north.
Temperature in degrees Fahrenheit
Helsinki, Finland
Month Average high Average low Record Warmest Record Coldest
JAN. 26 16 45 -33
FEB. 27 15 50 -22
MARCH 34 23 55 -13
APRIL 45 31 70 12
MAY 59 41 82 25
JUNE 66 49 86 30
JULY 70 53 88 40
AUG. 66 51 88 34
SEP. 56 43 77 19
OCT. 46 36 63 10
NOV. 36 28 50 -4
DEC. 30 20 48 -26
Latitude: 60 degrees, 19 minutes north
New Hampshire, USA
Month Average high Average low Record Warmest Record Coldest
JAN. 26 6 55 -31
FEB. 28 7 58 -28
MARCH 35 16 68 -15
APRIL 47 28 82 4
MAY 61 38 89 17
JUNE 69 48 90 29
JULY 73 53 91 32
AUG. 71 51 89 33
SEPT. 64 44 89 23
OCT. 55 34 82 3
NOV. 40 24 69 -1
DEC. 29 11 61 -19
Latitude: 43 degrees, 48 minutes north
Boath continents are big and New Hampshire is new Hampshire.
British too say that their island is so special that no others' knowledge work there.
narrowest point between England and Europe is 20 MILES.
We use to say that it is reindeer's pissing
Because they are so special, their beekeeping 10-20 years after Europe. Everything is so national, so national.
So California knowledge works in north than Finnish knowledge. That is your headace. I have no troubles to winter bees and no feeding troubles.
Well, we all got winter here. Let me tell you, NY is nothing like Spain or italy. Even in California, northen california is different from southern california. Keep in mind that Tasmania is closer to the south pole than you are to the north, and they are more like spain and italy. Lat/long has less to do with local climate than does the ocean. Your winters way up north are not as bad as our winters here way down south, or at least not much worse.
[Edit: ok, so I'm wrong about the Tasmania thing, but my point about the climate still stands]
Liquid feed is still best, if you can get them to take it. If you can add some Honey b Healthy, or spearmint/lemongrass oil, that might stimulate them to take the feed better.
Other than that...fondant and/or sugar. 5 lbs of sugar poured on top of a sheet of newspaper on the top bars will do the same thing.
Do what you need to to get them through, regardless of your longitude.
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What ever.
Every autum, when all brood have emerged, i take all honey away and and after that i give winterfood during one week.
When weather is cold, some hives need extra tricks to be feeded. After that hives are untouched 6 months. They do not need newspapers to read.
I have now 30 hives.
With daytime temps in the 50s you can still give them syrup IF you warm the syrup.
Well, the sun came back (at least for a while) and they are finally taking syrup. I'm rapidly making fondant for placing into the hives toward mid/late October, though.