Entering winter without stores

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

Up here, in my part of Alaska, the weather turned crummy about six weeks ago. Six weeks ago, all my hives had 30-40 pounds of honey stored up. As of last week, they had eaten all of it. I've put feeders with 2:1 syrup on all hives, but they do not seem to be taking it at a rate where they can reasonably prepare for the upcoming loooong winter.

Current daytime highs are in mid-50s and nighttime lows are in mid-40s. This may have a lot to do with how fast they're moving the syrup into the combs? I can't very well cull the "weak" hives without stores since NONE of them have stores and I'm not prepared for a 100% loss ... again.

Anyway, should I start making or buying fondant/candy in preparation for shutting them up in another three or four weeks when the temps will drop another 10 degrees (or more)? Or should I keep liquid feed on them even though they are not taking it?

[annette]

Let others give more suggestions on what you should do, but I do have my own suggestion.

I give my hives baggie feeders at different times of the year depending on the situation, and the good thing about the baggie feeders are you give them the warm syrup right on top of the super inside where the bees are so they can get to it really easily. If they were to take the syrup this way, then they would go through the baggies very quickly and you would have to stay on top of this.

Good luck and I feel for you. Hopefully you can find a solution.

[Tucker1]

Race Horse: Like Annette, I've used plastic bags to feed my girls both in the early spring and also during the fall. If fact, I've tried to minimize their dependency on stored honey to the highest degree possible. The girls seem to take to the sugar water placed in the plastic bags. The bags are easy to replace and are usually emptied in just a few days. You might have to do that all winter.

There are other approaches which have you using an empty brood box and a much large feeder placed in the brood box. This entails filling the empty spaces in the brood box with some sort of insulating material, such as dry leaves. I haven't used this approach, but I suspect others on the forum have, when faced with your situation. They may be able to provide you guidance.

Best of luck on feeding your girls thru the winter.

Regards,
Tucker1

[BenC]

How many, and what style colonies are you running?  What type of feeders are you using?  I just looked at your weather online and all I can really say is-  ummmm???... At this point it's not fondant OR syrup, if you are determined to keep your existing stock I'd suggest you try to stuff them with food in any way possible.  That means put some candy/fondant over them AND feed them warm heavy syrup often.  If it's cold out, the syrup must be warm or they won't take it.  Anyone have experience with getting bee food in the empty combs- pour in some dry sugar and mist it with water to make slush or get it to stick perhaps?  I've never tried it but might if I found myself in your situation.
    Reduce hive sizes to the minimum, place them in sun but out of the wind.  Dollar-wise, it may be cheaper at this point to let them perish and restock the hives next spring as you're looking at a lot of time and sugar that may not actually do any good.  On the other hand should one abandon starving livestock (including bees) simply because it's not economical for the shepherd?  I hope you find something that will work and allow you to maintain your bee stock, but at the same time I think you should prepare yourself for any outcome, including a 100% loss.  Best of luck.

Ben

[RayMarler]

Maybe try adding a deep hive box full of white granulated sugar over a sheet of newspaper on top of the hive, making it the top box in the stack. Put the outer lid cover on top of that. The sugar will absorb moisture and will provide a layer of insulation and will provide winter feed.

[Robo]

I wouldn't feed to much syrup.  It doesn't sound like your weather is too conducive for them to have time to thicken it up, especially the weak ones.  Food with too much water content (ie. syrup) is bad news in the winter and will most often lead to dysentery.   As others have suggested, I would get them set up with either sugar boards or granulated sugar.

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

How many, and what style colonies are you running?  What type of feeders are you using?

I have remaining four VTBH in Warre dimensions and two langs. The langs are very weak and will likely die regardless of my actions. All hives have Brother Adam type feeders set above them.

Reduce hive sizes to the minimum, place them in sun but out of the wind.  Dollar-wise, it may be cheaper at this point to let them perish and restock the hives next spring as you're looking at a lot of time and sugar that may not actually do any good.

Hive sizes have already been reduced to the least number of boxes still capable of housing all of the bees. Dollarwise, it is FAR cheaper to feed them. After freight, Alaska beeks are paying well over $100 for a package of bees and I've been getting five pound bags of granulated sugar for around $2.00/ea on sale or $3.50 when not on sale.

I suppose I will place shim with fondant or candy below the feeders and see what happens. Any estimates on how much fondant/candy will be needed to supply them for the whole winter? I was estimating close to 80 pounds honey, but fondant/candy/dry sugar quantities must be different due to lower water contents, but how much different?

[charmd2]

I live in Missouri, and weather conditions are FAR different.  But I nursed a late swarm through last winter with one medium of drawn comb, and one medium of granulated sugar on top of it.  Probally 30 lbs of sugar, I also threw in a pollen patty. 

They survived and built up fine this spring.   

I just layed down a newspaper, folded it to fit inside the frameless medium, left about a half inch gap on one side, poured the sugar in slowly, misting it with a water bottle to allow it to crust.  They finished the winter with some of it left over..  Maybe five lbs worth.  It's worth a shot.  $20 in sugar vs. $100 for a package. 

[Finski]

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I live in Finland at the level of Alaska Anchorage.
I have nursed bees 47 years.

I am just feeding them for winter. One box hive takes in 2 days the winter food and  
2 box langstroth hive takes in about one week.

If weather is cold, bees gather themselves in cluster and do bot rise into feeding box.

You may put some honey first into the feeder to start eating.

The ultimate system is that I soak combs into  65% syrup , let them drip a while and then I put them ito the hive.

If you have insulated walls, it saves 1/3 of winter food.  The upper insulation must bee thicker that it is warm and no condensation happens over the cluster.

I use 25 kg sugar for 2 box hives.

It is absolutly necessary that you feed them quickly and no dry sugar or fondant.  If feeding is prolonged,
they start brooding again.

************
Your weather is now about +10C and rainy. No problem with hive feeding. But later temp goes under freezing point.
http://www.accuweather.com/forecast-us.asp?partner=netweather&zipcode=99664&metric=1

[Finski]

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You may lift hives later into some shelter for ther worst frost.
You may use 3 W terrarium heater in the hive, so it helps them to be alive and hives dry.
I have wintered 2 frame colonies with terrarium heater.  

Or you bend a long 15 W heater cable so that each get 3 W heat from caple.
Price is about 20 $

[alflyguy]

Thankfully I've never had to deal with the kind of weather you have but I did have a hive that ran very low on stores last year. I made fondent and molded it into empth frames. By late spring they had eaten it all and built fondationless comb in the frames.

[Finski]

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When I now feed hives, they stores will be enough to May.
In autumn hives spend only 1/2 kg a month. In spring, when they have brood, hive spend several kilos food a month.

[Finski]

.

I suppose I will place shim with fondant or candy below the feeders and see what happens.

Don't do that.

In Finland what I know, everyone use sugar syrup to feed hives.
No one use the methid what Robo says, Fondant is used in spring after cleansing flight.
'
There are several beekeepers at the level of  Polar Circle.

We have not alternatives to play all kind of games, but hives survive very well.

For wintering it is essential that the stock react on local level and start winter rest.
If they contiue brooding they will die automatically.

Another thing is that if you bye every year a new bee package, its build up is so slow that
it will not get honey during summer.

Our yield season is only one month. During that time the hive gets 50-100 kg honey.

[Finski]

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Now, when I feed them, they are in total peace up to Marsh when they make cleansing flight (6 months). Then I weight with hand, do they have enough food. Snow melts in April.

So, bees live with sugar from September to April = 8 months. At the beginning of May willows start blooming and brooding starts.

In November we give oxalic acid trickling to hives against varroa. It takes 30 seconds per hive.

[bfriendly]

-for your climate, check out dick allen's thoughts (specifically on open feeding heavy syrup) here  !!oops I can not post links so you are going to have to type it in yourself :  www honeybeeworld com/misc/syrup/feed.htm  I personally like/use this approach, but some do not.  with only a few hives you should not have to worry too much about the biggest concern w/ open feeding, spreading disease.  make sure it is covered from the rain, also plenty of room for bees to access it= no fighting, and bait the area with scrap/ burr comb/ honey to get them interested in the first place.

-I personally would not feed too much syrup of any type (in the hive) if the temps are below 40 but yes, a baggie of warm syrup over the cluster will do wonders in an emergency situation.

-combine the weak langs into one/ or two hives, shake all the bees and consolidate combs as best you can, they may still have a chance

-look for some info from Keith Malone from AK (wasilla?) on feeding posts online possibly to bee-l or he may have web info up, he promotes (from what I recall) top insulation as a major important factor.  I strongly agree, I have been using foam board overhanging a few inches in all directions on top of flat (migratory) covers, I feel this helps.  I am also trying reflect-x (bubble foil) under migratory tops.  You want the top to be so well insulated that condensation does not form there, it forms on the sides of the box instead...  you also NEED top vent somehow.  I don't wrap but if you do make sure you have good ventilation.  i think kieth malone wraps in reflect-x (as you can tell i like this stuff). but make sure the top is MORE insulated...

-dry sugar can work but not all hives will take it in my experience.  I would NOT suggest a whole empty deep on top , try to minimize the empty space it is one thing if the outside temp is 30 degrees but quite another @ -30.  I would suggest a spacer rim (could be cut from a super) about 2-3" or possibly shallow super.  They will eat up through newspaper and sugar will form a "crust" on the outside.  If you are able to remove the outer crust and put down a single new sheet of newspaper and refill when ever they need it, I feel that it helps if this sugar is as close to the bees as possible.  

-your best source of information is going to be the beekeepers in eastern canada, they have put a lot of work into this.

[Robo]

No one use the methid what Robo says, Fondant is used in spring after cleansing flight.

Finski, I don't feed Fondant,  just white sugar.   Many folks here feed straight sugar with good success.  Why add moisture to a hive?  Especially those not strong enough to dry it.

[Finski]

-for your climate, -look for some info from Keith Malone from AK (wasilla?) on feeding posts online possibly to
-your best source of information is going to be the beekeepers in eastern canada, they have put a lot of work into this.

Bfriendly, you comments make no sence and no experience . No hive will your teaching over winter on 60 north latitude.

This is same BS like years before. Thanks pallls.
Wasting our time when when arguing simple questions.

And Dry sugar. Very personal.

.
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[Paraplegic Racehorse]

Finski, suggesting that I put liquid feed on the hives when I have already stated that they are not taking the liquid feed I have already put onto the hives is not helpful. Generally, I have found your posts to be informative and useful but, in this instance, I must request that you either abstain from comment or read the descriptions of my situation more thoroughly so that you may provide useful advice in aiding me rather than confusing the issue for others.

BFriendly, I don't run deep Langstroth hives and probably never will. Four of these are VTBH hives in the Warre dimensions and the other two are 10-frame 1/2-depth Dadant boxes (N. American beeks call these "Medium Supers" even though they are properly called "Dadant Supers").

I'm not concerned about adding water content to the hive. Both Kieth Malone (Alaska) and Dennis Murrel (Wyoming) have similar results when observing overwintering hives without top venting: the bees use the water on the top board to their advantage - assuming the beekeeper does not use that most useless piece of equipment: "inner cover".

I suppose, since the bees are not taking liquid feed, I'll put some fondant on the hives. Any recommendation as to how much? I was guessing they would need about 80 pounds honey stored to last through until May. That's more than farther inland and farther north because my winter temps are warmer: hovering around 0C (+/- 3C) for most of the winter, meaning the bees will be in less of a cold-induced torpor. If honey is 80% sugars (4:1 sugar:water) and fondant is 90% sugars (9:1 sugar:water, after boiling), then I should basically plan on about half my estimated honey-weight, in fondant, to get them through?

[BoBn]

I suppose, since the bees are not taking liquid feed, I'll put some fondant on the hives.

There are many northern beekeepers that have had success using dry sugar.  Robo's "sugar boards" and "sugar frames"
have several advantages.  Fondant is quite a bit more work and I don't see any advantage to fondant.

What is the advantage of using fondant?

[Finski]

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You have your own tricks. Keep them. I do not weaste our time.