Hi all,
We are re-queening one of our hives as the existing queen is of unknown age and producing a very poor brood pattern. I just have a question about logistics, and want to make sure I get this right.
The new queen should arrive on Thursday. I can only go into the hives in the mornings - should I open the hive on Thursday morning and pinch the existing queen, then place the new queen in the following morning? This would leave the colony queenless for 24 hours - I have heard that helps success of requeening. Any other tips or tricks?
A further few questions: what should I do with the queen in the cage between receiving her and placing her in to the hive. She's getting delivered to my work so she won't overheat (we have air con), but between going home and placing her in the hive the next morning what do I need to do to look after her?
>The new queen should arrive on Thursday. I can only go into the hives in the mornings - should I open the hive on Thursday morning and pinch the existing queen, then place the new queen in the following morning?
I would never pinch the queen. When I was ready to dispose of her I would drop her in a jar of alcohol. Her pheromones are too valuable for swarm lure to waste... but no I would not kill the queen until the new queen is laying. Pull the frame of brood with the queen and a frame of honey and put them in the smallest box you have filled out with empty frames. When the new queen is laying, drop the old queen in alcohol and give the frame of brood and honey back to the original hive. I also would not do any of this until I have the new queen in hand and she is alive.
>This would leave the colony queenless for 24 hours - I have heard that helps success of requeening. Any other tips or tricks?
12 hours is better. In 24 hours they will have started queen cells to replace the old queen. When you get the new queen, go out in the evening and remove the old queen. Go out the next morning and introduce the new queen in a candy cage with the candy exposed. If your schedule wont' allow that, 24 hours will do but not as well as 12...
>A further few questions: what should I do with the queen in the cage between receiving her and placing her in to the hive. She's getting delivered to my work so she won't overheat (we have air con), but between going home and placing her in the hive the next morning what do I need to do to look after her?
One drop of water per day. No more. On the screen wire. Two drops is too many. No drops is too few... Somewhere dark and quiet is best. A desk drawer. The basement. A closet.
As MB said, 12 hours is better, but I prefer 2 hours to 24. If you can't do morning/evening, or evening/morning, then remove the old and put the new in before going to work. The longer the better, but 1 hour is sufficient. I have done some with no interlude and never had a problem.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 21, 2016, 11:06:06 AM
I would never pinch the queen. When I was ready to dispose of her I would drop her in a jar of alcohol. Her pheromones are too valuable for swarm lure to waste...
This sounds interesting - can you elaborate?
Quote... but no I would not kill the queen until the new queen is laying.
So if I put the new queen in on Friday morning and check on Sunday afternoon there should be eggs from the new queen right?
QuotePull the frame of brood with the queen and a frame of honey and put them in the smallest box you have filled out with empty frames.
I only have a 10 frame deep box, would that be OK?
QuoteI also would not do any of this until I have the new queen in hand and she is alive.
Good point!
QuoteWhen you get the new queen, go out in the evening and remove the old queen. Go out the next morning and introduce the new queen in a candy cage with the candy exposed. If your schedule wont' allow that, 24 hours will do but not as well as 12...
Hmmm I don't get home til just on dark, I heard you shouldn't open a hive in the evening? Or is it worth it in this case.
What type of alcohol 91% rubbing alcohol or something like Everclear?
Quote from: LKBruns on February 21, 2016, 07:36:41 PM
What type of alcohol 91% rubbing alcohol or something like Everclear?
I use rubbing alcohol. Works great. Even virgin queens work.
Jim
Thanks - next year I will be requeening my hives. Can I put several queens in the same jar or should I put each queen in its own small vial / jar?
Quote from: LKBruns on February 21, 2016, 10:35:18 PM
Thanks - next year I will be requeening my hives. Can I put several queens in the same jar or should I put each queen in its own small vial / jar?
I put them all in one jar. I used to place one dead queen from the jar in a trap. Now I usually just place a Q-tip dipped in the alcohol in the trap with a few drops of lemon grass oil on the tops of the empty frames. I also put one old drawn frame on one side of the box.
Jim
>>I would never pinch the queen. When I was ready to dispose of her I would drop her in a jar of alcohol. Her pheromones are too valuable for swarm lure to waste...
>This sounds interesting - can you elaborate?
Get a jar. Fill it half full of isopropyl rubbing alcohol, or everclear, or vodka, or whatever you like that is fairly high alcohol content and not a lot of other smells/flavors. Drop the queen in the jar. Put on the lid. Repeat whenever you retire a queen. The liquid will turn brown then darker. The darker it is the better lure it makes. I dip one of those double ended cotton swabs in the queen juice and the other end in Lemongrass essential oil. It will usually lure a swarm hanging on a branch in a tree into an old bees box with some drawn comb in an hour or less.
>So if I put the new queen in on Friday morning and check on Sunday afternoon there should be eggs from the new queen right?
EXTREMELY doubtful. I've seen newly introduced queens take as long as a week and as short as three or four days.
>I only have a 10 frame deep box, would that be OK?
If that's the smallest you have. Smaller would help. A two frame would be ideal.
>Good point!
They often enough don't arrive alive and sometimes they get lost and don't arrive at all... or a week or two later and then they are really dead...
>Hmmm I don't get home til just on dark, I heard you shouldn't open a hive in the evening? Or is it worth it in this case.
Light a smoker, smoke them a little. Put the cage in the top box. I don't like to, but I have done it in the dark... You're not pulling out frames. But bees are very defensive and crawl a lot in the dark. Make sure you are wearing protection.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 22, 2016, 10:35:18 AM
>Hmmm I don't get home til just on dark, I heard you shouldn't open a hive in the evening? Or is it worth it in this case.
Light a smoker, smoke them a little. Put the cage in the top box. I don't like to, but I have done it in the dark... You're not pulling out frames. But bees are very defensive and crawl a lot in the dark. Make sure you are wearing protection.
Putting the queen
in will be OK, that will be in the morning.. I will have to find the old queen in the evening so I will be pulling frames. I will smoke and wear protection and hopefully we'll be right! It will be evening not dark, and they still seem to be flying a fair bit when I get home from work so hopefully we'll be OK!
I should have said, I've seen queens that took two weeks to start to lay... but a week is more likely and a couple of days is possible. Evening should be fine if you wear gear and light a smoker.
Requeening on Saturday so just a final question. I have easy access to formalin and methylated spirits at work. I assume metho is the better of the two, but is it suitable?
I'd say vodka beats either one. You only need a couple of ounces. And you don't want something foul smelling. You're going to use this to attract bees, not drive them away.
Thanks for the advice!
Removed the old queens this morning, went and picked up the new ones (one is a Cordovan and she looks very nice!), and installed the new queens this arvo.
Working without gloves for the first time and got stung for the first time since I was a kid on the knuckle when placing the queen cage in to my normally placid hive. They seemed annoyed... does being queenless make them more upset than usual or would it just be the fact I'd opened the hive twice in one day?
Finger swollen right up, very sore, and can hardly bend it! Hope subsequent stings aren't as bad
Yep. They don't like being queenless at all.
Seems to me getting stung right over bone (any bone) hurts and swells a lot more than in fleshy areas. Last time I got stung on a nuckle, my hand looked like a catcher's mitt pretty quickly. It'll take a few stings before you build up a resistance -- or react really bad! If I'm not wearing heavy gloves, I use nitrile gloves. They're a little slippery, so bees have a hard time getting a grip, and they resist punctures. But I jave been stung through them, too. I don't like getting stung :angry:
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 27, 2016, 01:56:17 PM
Yep. They don't like being queenless at all.
Seems to me getting stung right over bone (any bone) hurts and swells a lot more than in fleshy areas. Last time I got stung on a nuckle, my hand looked like a catcher's mitt pretty quickly. It'll take a few stings before you build up a resistance -- or react really bad! If I'm not wearing heavy gloves, I use nitrile gloves. They're a little slippery, so bees have a hard time getting a grip, and they resist punctures. But I jave been stung through them, too. I don't like getting stung :angry:
Next time I'll wear gloves with a queenless colony! Have been using nitrile but decided not to as it was just going to be quick hahah
This morning finger is super swollen and red, even a bit sore in my armpit on that side (local lymph node I assume). Hopefully not a sign I will react badly in the future
I've taken my share of stings and the ones on finger knuckles are some of the worst. I wouldn't measure my sensitivity by that sting. I've been stung in other places that barely raised a welt.
I take an antihistamine to reduce the allergic reaction
Mick
Quote from: SlickMick on February 28, 2016, 03:21:56 PM
I take an antihistamine to reduce the allergic reaction
Mick
Some people say loading up on vitamine C before working with bees helps if you get stung. I remove shiny watch or anything like that that attracts their attention. Smoke myself just a little.
The more I got stung over time the less it effected me. As has been said, there are a few sensitive places that hurts more.
Middle finger still like an oversized sausage and yesterday at beekeeping course got stung on the index finger top knuckle. Today two huge swollen fingers and hand swelling too! It's my right hand as well which sucks
Put Benidryl and Hydro cortizone on it. (spelling wrong) They each affect different things.
You can also use Vagisil cream. Kathy P promotes it as working better than anything else. I have used it and it works.
Bee sure to SCRAPE the stingers out as soon as your stung.
Jim
I'm not trying to scare you but be careful with this. I went from having no reaction to stings to doing the whole swelling thing to a scary semi conscious trip to hospital due to anaphylactic reaction in the space of 2 years. My personal advice (and remember that most advice is worth what you pay for it) would be to take steps to avoid being stung unnecessarily; sure it's going to happen from time to time but try to minimise it anyway.
You'll probably never develop an allergy but then again, the next sting you get could tip you over, so best policy (IMHO) is to avoid stings where possible.
FWIW....I am in the GSF camp on this thing. I have been doing this actively for a year now and doing removals as well...I am stung probably 2-3 times a week and its virtually always on the hands since I do always wear a veil...have gone from significant swelling to a red dot and minor swelling gone in 24 hrs(less annoying than a mosquito bite once the initial pain is over). Got stung through my jeans on Sunday last week sort of inside and behind the knee and it swelled a tad more since its a soft tissue area but yes for most people you will develop an immunity to some extent if you get stung weekly or monthly. Unless you go the other direction and your body develops an allergic reaction of some sort.
I was listening to a podcast interview last year....can't remember who it was...but they said that the time to worry is when you don't have a reaction. This was in reference to the first stings. If you begin beekeeping and get stung that first time, and have no reaction, it means you body doesn't really know what to do with the venom. You could have a very severe reaction in the future. If you get stung and have swelling and irritation in the local area of your body to the sting, this is natural. Sounded like it made sense to me.
My first year, I had swelling and itching. Now, the swelling and itching isn't as intense. Several factors play in to how much of a reaction I have. A sting on my finger tab hurts awful, but doesn't really swell. Stings on the backs of my hands and fingers don't really swell too much. Stings through jeans don't seem to be as deep, and they don't swell much. If I get the bee and stinger off quickly, it seems that I don't get as much venom. The reaction isn't as rough.
In your case, I think your swelling is a good sign. Your body recognizes the venom and is fighting it. In the future, your reactions will probably bee less severe. But...that doesn't mean you should go looking for stings, so you can build immunity. The less stings, the better.
Getting the stinger out quickly is the key. As mentioned above, use a credit card, knife, hive tool or whatever and scrape. The venom is still pumping for a while. And if you grasp the bees innards left hanging on the stinger, it's like squeezing the rubber part of a medicine dropper. It pushes the venom through the stinger.
If swelling is a good sign, I must really be having great signs, because sometimes I swell up big time. Other times, not so much.
I'm 1/4 of the way through a bee venom desensitisation course; still doing bees but very, very carefully, like wearing a second shirt and thick jeans under the beesuit, beeglove/gauntlets, smoking gloves and arms, never going alone and backing right off if they turn moody and letting my friend finish doing what's got to be done, fortunately the bees I have now have calmed down considerably since requeening last Spring .................. anyway, I digress.
The immunologist says that as I'm a beek, he'll extend the course to take my final dosage to 2x a normal sting, so hopefully a high level of efficacy for the treatment - what interests me is once desensitised, how I'll react to stings - I wonder if I'll still get the big swelling and itchiness?
Quote from: Richard M on March 02, 2016, 08:33:50 PMThe immunologist says that as I'm a beek, he'll extend the course to take my final dosage to 2x a normal sting, so hopefully a high level of efficacy for the treatment - what interests me is once desensitised, how I'll react to stings - I wonder if I'll still get the big swelling and itchiness?
Digressing here big time (but my original questions are answered!) but how will he know you are 'desensitised' at the end. Will he do a trial dose of whatever a bee would deliver in clinic to monitor you?
Quote from: PhilK on March 02, 2016, 10:25:18 PM
Quote from: Richard M on March 02, 2016, 08:33:50 PMThe immunologist says that as I'm a beek, he'll extend the course to take my final dosage to 2x a normal sting, so hopefully a high level of efficacy for the treatment - what interests me is once desensitised, how I'll react to stings - I wonder if I'll still get the big swelling and itchiness?
Digressing here big time (but my original questions are answered!) but how will he know you are 'desensitised' at the end. Will he do a trial dose of whatever a bee would deliver in clinic to monitor you?
I'm assuming that getting a 2 x normal sting dose equivalent in the final shots is a test in itself.
I don't think there are any guarantees - the way he puts it, the odds of a nasty reaction from a sting should be about the same as for the general population - about 2% but in any case, such a reaction as occurs
should be far less serious than would otherwise be the case.