For folks who know oxalic - from what I've read so far, vaporized oxalic seems pretty tolerable to the bees (ex. using it once a week for three - four weeks in order to get mites in the capped brood). Given the problems with the mites and accompanying viruses, how about the idea of just doing regular vaporizations throughout the season in order to keep ahead of them - say, every three weeks? I'm OK with getting whacked if this is a really stupid thought...;)
This may help you understand varroa mites better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4WvPNmS7uc&list=PLULmyvKFHmg1r-sf7eZkh5Lp0V0gWihmP&index=43
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
If you use oxalic acid you do need the proper label and Brushy Mountain has it as well as Betterbee and Dadant. If it does not have this label it is not legal to use in Massachusetts according to the state bee inspector. One thing to remember the label is the law whether you like it or not. And no you can't go out buy Wood bleach it is not properly labeled.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
chemically is there any difference between wood bleach & the properly labeled stuff?
Who knows?
All I can say is the label is the law. I know The Chemical Company do not have to tell you what they use for
Inert Ingredients. This ingredient may be different in the two products you mentioned . all I have to tell you is the active ingredient. I did go out to a club to bee meeting. There was a representative there from the pesticide board. If you are using a chemical off label it is against the law. Oh yeah and they had a definition of a chemical also. Which is way too long to list here.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
But then again all VOA was illegal until last year....and people were using whatever they could find and buying vaporizers from overseas and wood bleach from the hardware stores......also realize that there are mo such labeling concerns in Europe on this subject and they have been using VOA for 20+ years.
This is sort of like the state/federal government telling you to never exceed the speed limit and always come to a complete stop....no one does it not even state and federal law enforcement officials....but thats still their "official" policy.
Do as you feel is best.....Its a personal decision.
The label is very specific that it is only to be used in the spring or fall, not throught the season.
Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.
It looks like some people like going down rabbit hole.
Just an observation.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 24, 2016, 06:37:51 AM
Who knows?
All I can say is the label is the law. I know The Chemical Company do not have to tell you what they use for Inert Ingredients. This ingredient may be different in the two products you mentioned .
The chemicals are the same. We're taking about Oxalic Acid Dihydrate, Technical Grade, which is 99.5% or better. There are (or should be) NO inert ingredients - who made that b/s up ? If there are additions of any significance, then the manufacturer must reveal them - at least in general terms.
Impurities are
always listed on the product data sheet - they have to be. In the case of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate they are mainly salts of heavy metals, typically iron.
LJ
Quote from: little john on April 24, 2016, 08:30:27 AM
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 24, 2016, 06:37:51 AM
Who knows?
All I can say is the label is the law. I know The Chemical Company do not have to tell you what they use for Inert Ingredients. This ingredient may be different in the two products you mentioned .
The chemicals are the same. We're taking about Oxalic Acid Dihydrate, Technical Grade, which is 99.5% or better. There are (or should be) NO inert ingredients - who made that b/s up ? If there are additions of any significance, then the manufacturer must reveal them - at least in general terms.
Impurities are always listed on the product data sheet - they have to be. In the case of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate they are mainly salts of heavy metals, typically iron.
LJ
Maybe all of us should reread the label of this product Oxalic Acid Dihydrate . That is approved for the USA.
At can be found at
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate
For Varroa mite control on bees
Active Ingredient:
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate: ............................................................ 97.0%
Inert Ingredients: ......................................................................... 3.0%
TOTAL: .................................................................................... 100.0%
Not sure anyone has answered the OP's original question. I don't know the answer, so I'll just keep checking back in.
herbhome
If you would like to read the directions it is right on the label. The actual label is on page 3 & 4 of the link I put up. I do hope this answers all your questions. Also look at Reply #6.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
OK - the following answers my questions (from the label): thanks, Jim.
Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present.
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate might damage bee brood.
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate will not control Varroa mites in capped brood.
Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey.
Apply only when monitoring indicates treatment is required. Consult state guidelines and local extension experts for monitoring protocols and thresholds for treatment.
RESISTANCE MANAGEMENT:
Oxalic acid?s mechanism of action is unknown at this time. Any Varroa mite
population has the potential to become resistant to acaricides. Resistance development is affected by both the frequency
of application and rate/dose of application. Continued reliance on a single class of miticide or single miticide with the same
mode of action will select for resistant individuals which may dominate the mite population in subsequent generations. In
order to prevent resistance development and to maintain the usefulness of individual insecticides it is important to adopt
appropriate resistant management strategies.
To delay resistance:
x
When possible, rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the
same product, mode or action or chemical class. If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of
action each time before returning to a previously-used one.
x
Base miticide use on Integrated Pest Management (IPM). This includes proper pest identification, monitoring for
locality specific economic threshold and economic injury levels, record keeping, and utilizing all available control
practices (cultural, biological and chemical).
x
Maximize efficacy by following all label instructions including dosage and timing of application.
tjc1
I'm glad you read the label. :wink:
I hope you can tell the two formulas are different. Wood bleach and the proper one that is approved. Just look at the percentages of the active ingredient. As well as the percentages of the Inert Ingredient. I also realize this may not be the case in comparing one product with another with the same chemical name. One thing to remember the label is the law.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
I'm thinking the paragraph on resistance management shouldn't even have to be Law, it's more like natural law or good sense.
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 24, 2016, 09:18:28 AM
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate
For Varroa mite control on bees
Active Ingredient:
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate: ............................................................ 97.0%
Inert Ingredients: ......................................................................... 3.0%
TOTAL: .................................................................................... 100.0%
I'd bet you my pension that the so-called 'Inert Ingredients' are actually the impurities within a low-grade Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. Otherwise it would be an Oxalic Acid Dihydrate MIXTURE, and should be labelled as such.
Looks to me like marketing b/s. So - if there's 3% of crap present, then there should be a helluva lot of residue remaining in the pan. Is there ?
I'm sticky to my technical-grade OA (wood cleaner), as - if indeed labels can be trusted - it's a much purer product than what you guys are being sold.
LJ
I am in your court LJ...this stuff has been approved for use in Europe for 20 years and Canada for 5 years at least before the US there was no attempt to produce an "official" brand of OA crystals or restrictions on labeling this is atypical bureaucratic control thing in the US....there is knowledge on how the product works and quite a bit of research on it. If anyone is inclined to do a little searching on the net one can find quite a bit of info above and beyond that listed on the label....and draw some of your own conclusions.
Oh and for the record....get into a conversation with just about any doctor about over the counter drug warning labels in the US and ask them about the accuracy of those labels and their thoughts on recommended dosages listed ....or the arbitrary expiration dates placed and a lot of drugs as required by the labeling nazis in DC.... Just because its on a label it inst gospel truth
I seem to recall a temperature window for application (55-75? maybe) that would limit it's use during certain times of the year, certainly here in Florida.
This is from Brushy Mtn.: HOW MANY TIMES SHOULD I TREAT MY HIVE?
You will only want to treat your hive ONCE during the fall/winter. Honey bees have a low tolerance to Oxalic Acid. Overexposure can cause issues and death in the hive.
Here's a link to the page: http://blog.brushymountainbeefarm.com/2015/09/oxalic-acid-faqs.html (http://blog.brushymountainbeefarm.com/2015/09/oxalic-acid-faqs.html)
Quote from: deknow on April 24, 2016, 07:23:52 AM
Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.
And even more meticulous about record keeping which is also a requirement of the label. :rolleyes:
IMO OAV is a huge step in the wrong direction if you want to save the bees.
Quote from: Acebird on April 25, 2016, 12:10:02 PM
Quote from: deknow on April 24, 2016, 07:23:52 AM
Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.
And even more meticulous about record keeping which is also a requirement of the label. :rolleyes:
IMO OAV is a huge step in the wrong direction if you want to save the bees.
Do you know if that is required of this particular product? I do realize on some products it is required to do that especially if it requires a pesticide license to apply it.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
You may find this interesting to read. I really see no reason not to be compliant.
http://www.beeculture.com/oxalic-acid-effective-easy-on-bees-but/
I know last time a big commercial beekeeper in the USA got caught using an unapproved miticide it cost them thousands of $$$$$$$$$$$$ .
BEE HAPPY Jim134 :)
tjc1;
I can only answer your question with a speculation. I would guess if you used it to much they'd abscond. OA is somewhat like cologne; just because it's cheap don't mean you put a lot on. (lol)
yep.....need to pay close attention to dosages whichever formulation you choose to use. If interested in some good info this is a helpful link.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/ (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/)
I would definitely suggest you use the directions that the EPA has put out on the label. The website in the previous post which is a little dated. If the product you put it on does not have this label on the product it as not EPA approved in the USA
The actual label is on page 3 & 4 of the link I put up
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 25, 2016, 01:01:45 PM
Do you know if that is required of this particular product? I do realize on some products it is required to do that especially if it requires a pesticide license to apply it.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Going by this Jim:
QuoteBase miticide use on Integrated Pest Management (IPM). This includes proper pest identification, monitoring for
locality specific economic threshold and economic injury levels, record keeping, and utilizing all available control
practices (cultural, biological and chemical).
Thank you for getting back the information.
I see you quote has no reference which is ok. I do believe you should keep records anyway. What'd you do to your bee hives no matter what you do. It helps you make better decisions in the future.
I did go to a public hearing about this very chemical and very label in MA.. There was a EPA agent there .At the hearing this very question came up as long it does not require a applicator license. You do not have to keep track. The same thing as for any other chemical you can buy in the hardware store such as ant spray and mosquito spray and the like.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 25, 2016, 07:32:46 PM
I see you quote has no reference which is ok.
After reading the first link you provided the same one the OP quoted, I see that I am wrong about it being a requirement of the label. It was under "Resistance Management" and not stated as a requirement. However the greatest impact on bees is going to occur when commercial beekeepers use this product and don't keep records. Hives will certainly be over dosed and as a general rule dosage will increase over time for all users. As much as I hate GMO's it takes the pesticide dosage out of the hands of the user for the most part.
As far as the environment is concerned I wished there were all these smart people developing these chemical bombs working on finding out why some hives don't need them and promoting what ever it is that makes that so.
Reread the BeeCulture article paying special attention to the last paragraph. He reference to the "strength" of pure OA and the need to dilute down to a specific % for safe use is an attempt to justify the EPA label but it is a red herring and doesn't apply to Vaporization and anyone with a wit of commen sense woudl use various references and or forums like this to seek advice on application rates and not trust a single random you tube video...this is yet another example of big brother trying to protect us from ourselves.
God I sound like a conspiracy theorist right now and it makes me cringe but having a science background...and a brain....this whole thing gets me riled up for some reason.
I am not advocating anyone break the law...and commercial beekeepers obviously are required to abide by it or risk financial loss and legal recrimination. My point is that all of this labeling hubub and super secrecy behind Brushy Mountain getting the "exclusive" distribution of a product that is so virtually identical to what is already available on the market smacks of back room deals and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.
Should all beeks who have been treating with VOA under the table for years throw out their tubs of "wood bleach" and go out and buy the "legal" version? Should we look down our noses at the European beeks who have been using this method for 15-20 years and boycott all honey and hive imports from there because its obvious that all of their hives are contaminated? Should all Beekeepers in Hawaii and extreme south Florida who dont have brood breaks and cant follow the proposed Fall and spring treatment regimin be banned from using this treatment?
Probably not.....
Love this forum and you all are like family.....and some of the most hotly contested "discussions" I have ever had have been with family there you are :-)
To all who are reading this.....do as you see fit (within reason) for your bees and do what works to preserve and nurture these wonderful creatures...mankind has had a symbiotic relationship with these "ladies" for thousands of years and that bond predates all of these rules and regulations.
Quote from: KeyLargoBees on April 26, 2016, 09:02:57 AM
Should all Beekeepers in Hawaii and extreme south Florida who dont have brood breaks
Is this true? There are no dearths in Hawaii and south FL where the queen would shut down for a period?
"""I seem to recall a temperature window for application (55-75? maybe) that would limit it's use during certain times of the year, certainly here in Florida."""
I doubt you would ever see a dearth in the tropics with these temps.
Farmers that use homegrown 'tank mixes' also are smarter than regulators.
Quote from: KeyLargoBees on April 26, 2016, 09:02:57 AM
[ ...] smacks of back room deals and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.
Chemical companies have financial muscle. In Europe we used the cheap generic chemicals Sodium Chlorate and Ammonium Sulphamate as perfectly effective weedkillers for donkey's years - until they were banned for spurious reasons and now we must buy EU-approved and very expensive patented weedkillers from the likes of Bayer and Monsanto.
Market manipulation by the chemical lobby ? It's very hard not to draw that conclusion.
LJ
Quote from: Acebird on April 26, 2016, 08:49:12 AM
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 25, 2016, 07:32:46 PM
I see you quote has no reference which is ok.
After reading the first link you provided the same one the OP quoted, I see that I am wrong about it being a requirement of the label. It was under "Resistance Management" and not stated as a requirement. However the greatest impact on bees is going to occur when commercial beekeepers use this product and don't keep records. Hives will certainly be over dosed and as a general rule dosage will increase over time for all users. As much as I hate GMO's it takes the pesticide dosage out of the hands of the user for the most part.
As far as the environment is concerned I wished there were all these smart people developing these chemical bombs working on finding out why some hives don't need them and promoting what ever it is that makes that so.
I learned a long time ago a quote taken out of context is nothing but a pretext
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: KeyLargoBees on April 26, 2016, 09:02:57 AM
Reread the BeeCulture article paying special attention to the last paragraph. He reference to the "strength" of pure OA and the need to dilute down to a specific % for safe use is an attempt to justify the EPA label but it is a red herring and doesn't apply to Vaporization and anyone with a wit of commen sense woudl use various references and or forums like this to seek advice on application rates and not trust a single random you tube video...this is yet another example of big brother trying to protect us from ourselves.
God I sound like a conspiracy theorist right now and it makes me cringe but having a science background...and a brain....this whole thing gets me riled up for some reason.
I am not advocating anyone break the law...and commercial beekeepers obviously are required to abide by it or risk financial loss and legal recrimination. My point is that all of this labeling hubub and super secrecy behind Brushy Mountain getting the "exclusive" distribution of a product that is so virtually identical to what is already available on the market smacks of back room deals and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.
Should all beeks who have been treating with VOA under the table for years throw out their tubs of "wood bleach" and go out and buy the "legal" version? Should we look down our noses at the European beeks who have been using this method for 15-20 years and boycott all honey and hive imports from there because its obvious that all of their hives are contaminated? Should all Beekeepers in Hawaii and extreme south Florida who dont have brood breaks and cant follow the proposed Fall and spring treatment regimin be banned from using this treatment?
Probably not.....
Love this forum and you all are like family.....and some of the most hotly contested "discussions" I have ever had have been with family there you are :-)
To all who are reading this.....do as you see fit (within reason) for your bees and do what works to preserve and nurture these wonderful creatures...mankind has had a symbiotic relationship with these "ladies" for thousands of years and that bond predates all of these rules and regulations.
You can apply for a license to manufacture this product and possibly a different label to the EPA. Brushy Mountain just happened to be the first one who did this.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
> My point is that all of this labeling hubub and super secrecy behind Brushy Mountain getting the "exclusive" distribution of a product that is so virtually identical to what is already available on the market smacks of back room deals and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.
The problem is the system, not backroom deals. The system says you have to test the product, present the findings and pay a fee to sell it. If you are willing to do that, you could also sell it. The problem is that there is no money in that when people can go buy it off the shelf already. I'd say Brushy Mt. is doing more out of the goodness of their heart than any hope of a profit. Now at least there is a legal way to do it.
Quote from: deknow on April 26, 2016, 09:47:26 AM
Farmers that use homegrown 'tank mixes' also are smarter than regulators.
They usually catch a few farmers every year doing this. One of the biggest things wrong has
a lot of chemicals would never meant to be mixed together at the same time. This can make for a very deadly cocktail.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I do realize.These are rumors from the internet. Brushy Mountain put up a half million dollars or so. To do all the testing and legal work for this product.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
None of my posts were in any way meant to play down the the role BM had in getting this "legalized".
Quote from: Acebird on April 25, 2016, 12:10:02 PM
Quote from: deknow on April 24, 2016, 07:23:52 AM
Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.
And even more meticulous about record keeping which is also a requirement of the label. :rolleyes:
IMO OAV is a huge step in the wrong direction if you want to save the bees.
Tell me more. I've looked at a number of mite treatments and the only one I'll try is OA. Why do you think it's bad?
>Why do you think it's bad?
I'll offer a quote from Kirk Webster:
"We're trying to ensure the failure of modern beekeeping by focusing too much on single traits; by ignoring the elements of Wildness; and by constantly treating the bees. The biggest mistake of all is to continue viewing mites and other "pests" as enemies that must be destroyed, instead of allies and teachers that are trying to show us a path to a better future. The more virulent a parasite is, the more powerful a tool it can be for improving stocks and practice in the future.
"...All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels---all done in thousands of replications---will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the Varroa mites do these things for us."
--Kirk Webster, What's missing from the current discussion and work related to bees that?s preventing us from making good progress
In my opinion Kurt Webster Is miles a head of all the other treatment free beekeepers in the USA. There are many other good treatment free beekeepers in New England.
I have seen some recent articles written by Kurt Webster and I hope he doesn't stop again.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
QuoteI'll offer a quote from Kirk Webster:
I couldn't even come close to saying it any better. So I won't even try.
If you would like to read some of Kurt Webster's articles here you go. Remember one thing any comments you make on this page may or may not see by Kurt. He does not have a computer.
http://kirkwebster.com/
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
How does he have a website without a computer???
Reading just a little bit of his site-- looks like a bit of wishful thinking, but I'll read more. Since he's done this for years, I'm open to believing he's onto something. That may be wishful thinking on my part.
Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, stupidity is the inability to use that knowledge.
That being said I use the OA vaporizer in the fall and will continue to do so until time and knowledge permits me to go down the successful path that I desire. It seems like I've been trying to put 5 gallons of lard in a three gallon bucket for years. (playing catch up) We are slowly trimming the time consuming items out of our lives - thank God.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on April 27, 2016, 01:04:40 AM
How does he have a website without a computer???
You can have a back account without owning a bank.
>I couldn't even come close to saying it any better. So I won't even try.
That's why I didn't try...
>How does he have a website without a computer???
He has friends who have computers. I think he actually does have a computer. He does not have internet. He does not have a cell phone... The articles were mostly published in bee magazines and then posted to make them available.
Kurt Webster does have an open house usually about twice a year. I see I missed the first one this year. This is only about an hour and a half where I live. Well worth my time.
Here is the schedule for 2016
Two open house field days: April 23, and July 23, 2016; rain or shine--9:00 AM to 4:00 PM, rain or shine. 1437 South Street, New Haven, Vt. 05472
These are open to the public and there is no charge or pre-registration. The dates were chosen to show the apiary at its apparent weak point (April) and its apparent strong point (July). (Those who are gathering evidence to show that commercial beekeeping without treatments is impossible will probably want to come in April; those already convinced that this type of beekeeping is easy and always good news should come in July. For all others with a serious interest, I recommend coming to both.) Hopefully, these are relaxed, informal events which can accommodate beekeepers of all skill and experience levels. Weather permitting, we'll be able to examine colonies and describe the process of making spring and summer nucs. There should be plenty of time for both beginner and advanced questions and discussions. Very likely we will visit another beeyard in addition to the home farm. Bring a veil, bag lunch and some water to drink, and rain gear if the weather is inclement.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I like the idea. Here's my problem. Well, maybe it's not a problem but rather my own ignorance. I get the fact of letting evolution work its way out. Keep bees, propagate the survivors, and eventually the bees figure it out. They are, after all, insects, and they can breed quickly and develop resistance just as easily as varroa can develop resistance to miticides. But how practical is it for a hobbyist with 2-3 hives to maintain his or her stock with nucs? Keep some hives, raise some nucs, and replace the dead hives with the nucs next year. Is that the strategy? And I suspect you have to get kind of good a queen rearing, because what sense does it make buying queens from some other location? If you maintain your own stock and replenish with nucs, my guess is you should cultivate your own supply of queens descended from survivors. How easy is this to do with 3 hives? (I don't mean "easy" as in "little effort." I mean easy from the standpoint of having a good chance of keeping the train going with only a few hives and one pair of hands.)
Tell me more. You almost have a convert here. Spirit is willing, but the skill is weak.
Quote from: KPF on April 27, 2016, 04:31:52 PM
How easy is this to do with 3 hives? (I don't mean "easy" as in "little effort." I mean easy from the standpoint of having a good chance of keeping the train going with only a few hives and one pair of hands.)
If I would stop making stupid mistakes it would be pretty easy for me. I do not know if I got lucky from the start and got the right genetics from the start or if I live in a location where these genetics already exist. In the north (and you live in the north) you automatically get a winter brood break that helps to control varroa. I do not bother with nucs (too much effort). I try to run three full size hives and usually split in the spring. This will most likely net you more than 3 full size hives that you can sell or give away. In a bad year you will have less then three and a good year you will have more than three. If you are recovering from a bad year you may not get as much honey as you want so just up your average count to four.
In the future we will be moving to FL and I anticipate a completely different ball game. I probably will not be able to let the hives make their own queen due to AHB genetics. I won't have the advantage of a winter brood break and SHB will be another challenge I will have to learn. But if I have bees in FL I will not bomb them with chemicals. That is a promise.
The local inspector snorted his coffee out his nose when he looked at my labels.. that I printed myself.. the label had the ingredients, etc, etc, and approved for use in hives for the treatment of mites etc.. all the legal technical looking stuff, and the purity, which is 99.6%... he nodded his head after wiping his face and nodded...
"You know, NO ONE has done this yet and I have been wondering why. this meets the letter of the law at least for the moment."
Of course, the local inspector has known I used OAV to bleach my frames for a few years now. Who is to say that you cant still do the same with the stuff that is not correctly labeled?
As far as the ops question of treating regularly... Why? What purpose will it serve? I treat when the weather is COMFORTABLE for me to go out and do it, rather than blowing snow about in a 30 mph wind.. You can find plenty of information on OAV testing... for instance;
Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: ?We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.? ?With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.?
I treat three times. twice, one week apart and a third time at week four, then I dont have to treat any more until late summer early fall.. treat the same way, and its DONE until next year.. I really dont want to go out and treat ALL of my hives every month, though from experience, AND what I have read of the studies done, that I have seen no evidence it will cause any problems..
I have also seen 0 evidence that the OAV treatments hurt open brood in any manner. I have not lost open brood, have not seen it being removed from the hives, nor have I seen evidence of damaged brood in fully filled frames. Frames that are wall to wall open brood. NOW, since I do NOT treat every week, or even every month, I cant stick my neck out and say that treating that much would NOT cause harm, I only know that the spring and fall treatments have never caused harm..... WITH the 99.6% pure OA that I use.
In all honesty, I am a little confused by the resistance, concern, and animosity that I see toward OAV, but then, I try to use common sense both in application frequency and care during application. OAV has worked VERY well for me, from the first time I used it to bleach my frames to this day. Perhaps, it is the common sense thing working in my favor? My wife claims I have no common sense, no matter how much I try to convince her that I do. Be that as it may, I am thankful for OAV. I use it like I do, because it works. I see no reason to modify, change, increase, decrease, or go out in the COLD and wind to apply it. So long as the results are clear, obvious, plain, and always excellent, I will continue the method I have adopted.
Quote from: OldMech on April 27, 2016, 08:08:31 PM
I treat three times. twice, one week apart and a third time at week four, then I dont have to treat any more until late summer early fall.. treat the same way, and its DONE until next year.. I really dont want to go out and treat ALL of my hives every month, though from experience, AND what I have read of the studies done, that I have seen no evidence it will cause any problems..
You are living a pipe dream. Enjoy the ride.
If your going to be an idiot by saying something like that, then explain why so I can prove your an idiot, or I am.
Well you are treating with an insecticide to kill a bug on a bug and then decide (I don't want to use the word idiot) where common sense lies.
Folks, best to calm this down now. When things break down to name calling and attacking other members, it is only a short step to a permanent exit. We never like doing this, but reserve it for when people do not comply with the rules.
Since when is Oxalic classified as an insecticide? It does no harm to the bees and leaves no residue in the wax. In fact the hive already has OA in it naturally, as does Honey. Oxalic is an ACID, hence the reason we call it Oxalic Acid.
Most pesticides work by affecting the nervous system of the insect. The pesticide interrupts the information being sent by neurotransmitters in the synapses. The chemical produced by the body used to send information through the synapses is called acetycholine. An enzyme called cholinesterase binds with acetycholine and allows muscles to rest.
In a body that is working normally, the acetycholine sends messages to the muscles through the synapses. Cholinesterase keeps the amount of acetycholine at an acceptable level, which controls the stimulation. When a pesticide is introduced at a lethal dosage for a particular body, the cholinesterase is affected, keeping it from binding with the acetycholine. When this happens, the muscles are over-stimulated which will lead to paralysis and death.
When used as directed, OAV does not harm the queen, the bees or the brood! And it does not contaminate the comb as poisons do..........
https://www.dadant.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2011/09/Dadant_OxalicAcidVaporizer_QandA.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,-217,723
There are a few places you can find the research if you look. As I understand it, they have been using OAV for 20+ years to treat hives overseas with no signs of becoming resistant/immune with damage to bees/brood/comb etc.. Where as just about every poison we had been using was quite hard on bees, just as was said, using a pesticide/insecticide to kill a little insect on a big insect. Within days of treatment, the "BEES" will remove the residual OA crystals from the hive. (Emphasis mine)
This will be (is) my fifth year using OAV, and it is as effective now as it was the first time I used it. My bees do not cluster on the front porch when I treat, the queen does not stop laying, no brood gets hauled out, etc...
There are apparently many thousands of beekeepers living the pipe dream, and they have been doing so for over 20 years now. I get annoyed when someone dislikes something without having an informed reason for doing so. For me it falls into the same category as someone saying, "NEVER feed your bees!" Or "NEVER treat your bees! It isnt natural!" Statements like that, and the one above hurt new beekeepers. I have had my fill of would have been beekeepers telling me they gave up when their bees died. I see OAV as a godsend to new beekeepers. It is easy to use with little chance of harming the bees like a misapplication of pesticide strips can and do.
It is my mission in life to see new beekeepers succeed in their first year. After that, if they want to stop treating, feeding, winterizing and caring for their bees, well, at least they may have a better understanding of why their bees died.
And, If you need to ban me then that is your choice. I dont NEED to be here, but I usually enjoy trying to help. Common sense to me means your at least a little bit informed about a subject before you degrade it, and possibly turn someone away from it for no good reason.
You are living a pipe dream. Enjoy the ride.
How was that constructive or helpful? Informative? I see it as an attack since it is none of the other things.
Scott
There seems to be some confusion here. Varroa is NOT an internal DISEASE of bees, it is an external PARASITE of bees - there is a difference.
The analogy I often use when discussing this issue is that of a monkey - which might be carrying the deadly Ebola Virus - sitting on your shoulder. In order to save your life, I shoot the monkey off your shoulder, without any harm being inflicted on yourself.
Question: Have I shot YOU or have I shot the MONKEY ?
When administering OAV, one is NOT treating BEES - one is treating MITES. OA functions as a miticide, not an insecticide.
LJ
Most of the things being used as acaracides used to be labeled as insecticides... there is not that much difference systemically or anatomically between one and the other. Pretty much the things that kill mites without killing bees is only because of the size of the mite and the size of the bee. If it kills the mite, it damages the bee. You are NOT shooting the mite off of the bee. You are exposing the bee to the same caustic acid you are exposing the mite to.
Quote from: Acebird on April 27, 2016, 05:02:45 PM
Quote from: KPF on April 27, 2016, 04:31:52 PM
How easy is this to do with 3 hives? (I don't mean "easy" as in "little effort." I mean easy from the standpoint of having a good chance of keeping the train going with only a few hives and one pair of hands.)
If I would stop making stupid mistakes it would be pretty easy for me. I do not know if I got lucky from the start and got the right genetics from the start or if I live in a location where these genetics already exist. In the north (and you live in the north) you automatically get a winter brood break that helps to control varroa. I do not bother with nucs (too much effort). I try to run three full size hives and usually split in the spring. This will most likely net you more than 3 full size hives that you can sell or give away. In a bad year you will have less then three and a good year you will have more than three. If you are recovering from a bad year you may not get as much honey as you want so just up your average count to four.
In the future we will be moving to FL and I anticipate a completely different ball game. I probably will not be able to let the hives make their own queen due to AHB genetics. I won't have the advantage of a winter brood break and SHB will be another challenge I will have to learn. But if I have bees in FL I will not bomb them with chemicals. That is a promise.
Tell me more about letting them raise their own queens. Do you let supersedure and swarming happen naturally or do you do any grafting and control of the process? I had one hive swarm last summer and it did not do well thereafter. I wonder if the drone population in my area was just too small to result in a successful mating of the new queen.
Quote from: little john on April 28, 2016, 05:51:29 AM
When administering OAV, one is NOT treating BEES - one is treating MITES. OA functions as a miticide, not an insecticide.
LJ
LJ, When you spray bug repellent on your skin it's intent is to repel bugs that bite you. Unfortunately the skin will absorb some of the chemical. There is no immediate negative reaction from using the spray (for most of the population) so we label it as no harm done to humans.
OAV has been used in Europe for 20 years. How come all the mites are not dead? Twenty years of use and the mites are still surviving. How can you call that effective? When you use the chemical you have to wear a mask because the vapors can drop you dead. So this acid can kill mites, kill humans, but doesn't do a darn thing to a honeybee. That is something I cannot accept. This is what I am labeling as a pipe dream. I did not intend to attack anyone.
I think new beekeepers have the right to read opposing views on any subject and determine what course of action is right for them.
My apologies to anyone who feels my comments were an attack.
Quote from: KPF on April 28, 2016, 10:02:34 AM
Tell me more about letting them raise their own queens.
This is off topic but I basically deal the deck and walk away. Michael Bush has every option on his website. Timing is everything when it comes to bees.
If you want to be compliant with USA laws. This is the product you use.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf
If not there may be a penalty to pay. If you are using chemicals that are off label in a beehive or anywhere else.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I think this is about as close to a "political" discussion as I have seen on this site.....no way to win it.....everyone becomes a loser.... I am out....do what you feel is best and we will have to agree to disagree.
I'm sticking with OAV until I can do better. I've used it 3 winters and apparently it's made beekeeping for me a whole different picture than life without it. MB's small cell approach is totally interesting but currently I don't have the time to dedicate to this approach. At some point in time I'm certainly going to try it. He's got a lot of years under his belt with this as well.
OldMech & Acebird I enjoy the knowledge you both bring to the table. Always remember, the written word is the worst way to communicate "exactly" what you're saying or how you're saying it.
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 28, 2016, 11:04:58 AM
If you want to be compliant with USA laws. This is the product you use.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf
If not there may be a penalty to pay. If you are using chemicals that are off label in a beehive or anywhere else.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Has anyone other than a commercial pest control person ever been prosecuted (judicially or administratively) for violating the dictates of the label? As a Master Gardener, I've advised people about the law and good practices with regard to pesticides, told them the damage overuse or improper use can cause and had the person respond with "Okay, but I'm going to go ahead and treat my lawn (or whatever) with it anyway."
Urban homeowners are the worst offenders of overuse of pesticides and the first to complain about water quality when rivers and lakes that supply drinking water become polluted with chemicals. They try to blame agricultural users, but farmers use measured amounts of pesticides that are just enough to do the job.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on April 28, 2016, 03:04:13 PM
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 28, 2016, 11:04:58 AM
If you want to be compliant with USA laws. This is the product you use.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf
If not there may be a penalty to pay. If you are using chemicals that are off label in a beehive or anywhere else.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Has anyone other than a commercial pest control person ever been prosecuted (judicially or administratively) for violating the dictates of the label? As a Master Gardener, I've advised people about the law and good practices with regard to pesticides, told them the damage overuse or improper use can cause and had the person respond with "Okay, but I'm going to go ahead and treat my lawn (or whatever) with it anyway."
Urban homeowners are the worst offenders of overuse of pesticides and the first to complain about water quality when rivers and lakes that supply drinking water become polluted with chemicals. They try to blame agricultural users, but farmers use measured amounts of pesticides that are just enough to do the job.
Yes Adee Honey Farms of Bruce, South Dakota; Was prosecuted in Minnesota for using off-label chemicals in a beehive and was ordered to pay $14,000. This was about 9 to10 years ago
Something you might like to read before you use off-label chemicals or products .
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?195371-Adees-fined-for-unapproved-chemical-use&highlight=Adee
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Aye.. and I will continue to treat my bees with OAV to kill the mites that harm them. I must also disagree with Michael to a certain extent.. I want to see the research that shows OAV harms the bees please? I do constantly search for both the good, and bad. I have yet to see any definitive research done in any believable manner that indicates the bees are harmed by the correct usage of OAV... I have seen NON definitive research claiming a LOT of good, which i have discounted in favor of the more thorough processes done in a controlled manner, which also claim no harm is done.
Its sort of like researching systemic insecticides by planting a little patch of something treated with said insecticide near some beehives and claiming its safe for the bees... thats not how it works... Everyone wants the OAV to be the silver bullet for mites, and much of what i have read seems to be wishful thinking, I would also very much like to read about the other end of the spectrum, but have as yet found nothing I feel confident is accurate.
" If it kills the mite, it damages the bee." OK? How? When pretty much everything the bees forage on has OA in it to one degree or another.. yes, in trace amounts compared to the amount we stuff into the hives... What exactly is the damage?
I have read it harms open brood, but have seen no evidence to support it myself. I can point to several sites that claim it does no damage at all after "much" research, but like Monsanto testing their own pesticides, its easy to ignore any ill effects in favor of the good when you sell those pesticides (or in this case Vaporizors.)
Thanks!
In part, what got me to wondering about the original question was that I waited until my hives were brood free to treat with the OAV (on Nov. 7), but that turned out to be too late - it killed lots of mites, but it turned out the hives were already too far gone and absconded soon after. So, if you only treat in early spring and late fall with OAV, how do you avoid this situation? I guess the answer is earlier in the fall when there is still open brood...?
Quote from: OldMech on April 28, 2016, 10:36:36 PM
" If it kills the mite, it damages the bee." OK? How?
I don't think we know how. From what I read we don't know how it kills the mite. If we did we might have a better understanding what it does to the bee. But with the bee it is more complicated because there is the whole organism of the colony that is treated not just a single adult bee. It is very unusual in this country to have something approved when we know so little. So many times in the past we learned later on the damage that occurs to the environment and then enact laws to ban the practice a little too late. Now in the case of OAV the cry for approval came from beekeepers not a chemical company. That is a big switch. What is not a switch is the increased dependency on chemicals and this approval has turned a corner where there is no turning back. Wishing for something and getting it could be the worse thing that ever happened to a beekeeper and his bees.
Acebird
I wonder why you post. Remind me of all the old news clippings I used to see the kid in the movie theater. And no I don't believe they're both the same in anyway. But it sure looks similar.
https://youtu.be/RmeqHs4svbQ
People were looking for silver bullets in 1945 not much has changed. :wink: Remember one thing: I believe it DDT came from Europe.
3:00 to 5:00 minutes on the counter.Did I not hear Europe ??
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I'm going to use OA for my new packages and try to drop it once they get established. Packages have so much going against them that giving them a respite from mites in year 1 might give them a chance to make it through that first year and let them focus on building comb. After that, I'm going to put the vape away and try my best to keep them going naturally and use nucs to create a mini-survivor stock apiary. It will take some more study on my part to master these techniques but that's the fun of beekeeping. I haven't looked into miticides too closely but from what I can gather OA is the least noxious of the bunch. I agree with other posters who have made the important point that chemicals are chemicals and the difference between a drug and a poison is often just the dose. If you take it to the most extreme degree, even water is dangerous (if you're a marathoner and overhydrate, diluting your electrolytes and placing yourself at risk of heart attack. Yes, people have died after marathons because they drank too much water.)
I appreciate all the posters' comments and the dialogue. The argument that not treating ultimately is better for the bees makes a lot of sense to me. A subpopulation of bees will eventually be resistant to varroa and if left to breed will solve the problem. Whether it does so in my lifetime is a different question, but I'm going to hope for the best!
Quote from: Acebird on April 28, 2016, 10:05:43 AM
Quote from: little john on April 28, 2016, 05:51:29 AM
When administering OAV, one is NOT treating BEES - one is treating MITES. OA functions as a miticide, not an insecticide.
LJ
LJ, When you spray bug repellent on your skin it's intent is to repel bugs that bite you. Unfortunately the skin will absorb some of the chemical. There is no immediate negative reaction from using the spray (for most of the population) so we label it as no harm done to humans.
That's not an equal comparison, for skin will most certainly absorb chemicals - that is the route used by ointments. In marked contrast, the cuticle of the honeybee will not absorb chemicals - certainly not for the duration we're talking about here. And - honeybee spiracles are surrounded by hairs which will block particles the size of Oxalic Acid microcrystals - ergo - Oxalic Acid never gets to enter the body of the honey bee. (unless it's unwisely fed to hungry bees in a sugar solution)
QuoteOAV has been used in Europe for 20 years. How come all the mites are not dead?
Because not everyone is using OAV - some beekeepers dribble OA in sugar solution (which I think is daft), many use patented compounds, some don't treat at all, and feral bees of course don't get treated.
QuoteWhen you use the chemical you have to wear a mask because the vapors can drop you dead. So this acid can kill mites, kill humans, but doesn't do a darn thing to a honeybee. That is something I cannot accept.
As mentioned above, bees never get to inhale the microcrystalline aerosol - the particles are too large. And, AFAIK it doesn't kill mites by inhalation either. The reason it would kill humans by inhalation is because we have a much different respiratory system to that of insects. A good dose of OA Vapour would cause our sensitive airways to clamp shut, preventing breathing. Just as water would do. So we can drown - fish don't. Different respiratory systems again.
Over the last 20 years, we (in Europe) have discovered that in practice OAV is deadly for the Varroa mite, but doesn't harm honeybees. By this, I mean that there is no evidence whatsoever that bees are harmed in any way. Hence we continue to use it. If everyone used it, and gave multiple spread doses to ensure that all brood are caught, then we could heavily decimate the varroa population. The only remaining vehicle for mite propagation would then be feral bees - so they're unlikely to ever be eradicated completely.
We love our bees - don't you think that if there was ANY suggestion of harm being caused, then we would have stopped using it years ago ?
LJ
In the state where I live the apiary laws and regulations. Plus two other states that borders the town where I live. In it's descriptions tells me oxalic acid is a pesticide.... Just maybe you should look up the state laws for yourself before you believe stuff on the internet. Most all states in the USA have Rewritten the apiary laws and regulations in the past two to three years so please keep up. :wink:
While you're at it you should look up applying pesticide products to bee hives. And if you do bottle and jar your own honey you may want to look up food laws for processing and labeling..
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 29, 2016, 12:06:33 PM
In the state where I live the apiary laws and regulations. Plus two other states that borders the town where I live. In it's descriptions tells me oxalic acid is a pesticide.... Just maybe you should look up the state laws for yourself before you believe stuff on the internet. Most all states in the USA have Rewritten the apiary laws and regulations in the past two to three years so please keep up. :wink:
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Jim,
Horticulturally, a tomato is a fruit, okay? But the United States Supreme Court ruled that it's a vegatable, so a tomato is legally a vegetable. Then the bureaucrats at the Agriculture Department or the Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare or whatever decreed that for school lunch program purposes, ketchup (catsup?) counted as a vegetable.
What I'm saying is that I'd ALMOST believe something I read on the internet before taking official government pronouncements as pure and true.
I'm going to use OA for my new packages and try to drop it once they get established
At first I thought you said you were going to put them in the super then treat with OAV.
Yeah, make sure they've been there a while and have open brood before you treat. Otherwise someone will be catching a swarm with a marked queen.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on April 29, 2016, 12:19:14 PM
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 29, 2016, 12:06:33 PM
In the state where I live the apiary laws and regulations. Plus two other states that borders the town where I live. In it's descriptions tells me oxalic acid is a pesticide.... Just maybe you should look up the state laws for yourself before you believe stuff on the internet. Most all states in the USA have Rewritten the apiary laws and regulations in the past two to three years so please keep up. :wink:
While you're at it you should look up applying pesticide products to bee hives. And if you do bottle and jar your own honey you may want to look up food laws for processing and labeling.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Jim,
Horticulturally, a tomato is a fruit, okay? But the United States Supreme Court ruled that it's a vegatable, so a tomato is legally a vegetable. Then the bureaucrats at the Agriculture Department or the Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare or whatever decreed that for school lunch program purposes, ketchup (catsup?) counted as a vegetable.
What I'm saying is that I'd ALMOST believe something I read on the internet before taking official government pronouncements as pure and true.
Just remember one thing if you do go to court on any kind of Chase . Guess who rules got played by a whose definitions.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: little john on April 29, 2016, 10:58:02 AM
And - honeybee spiracles are surrounded by hairs which will block particles the size of Oxalic Acid microcrystals - ergo - Oxalic Acid never gets to enter the body of the honey bee.
LJ, isn't the vapor a gas particle and that is not small enough to enter the honeybee spiracles?
I am sure you would not intentionally do something to harm your honeybees but if you believe that OAV is the silver bullet against mites I can't see you pushing for research that would prove the harm. There isn't even any push to find out how it works. This is not logical to me.
Quote from: Acebird on April 29, 2016, 09:22:35 AM
Quote from: OldMech on April 28, 2016, 10:36:36 PM
" If it kills the mite, it damages the bee." OK? How?
I don't think we know how. From what I read we don't know how it kills the mite. If we did we might have a better understanding what it does to the bee. But with the bee it is more complicated because there is the whole organism of the colony that is treated not just a single adult bee. It is very unusual in this country to have something approved when we know so little. So many times in the past we learned later on the damage that occurs to the environment and then enact laws to ban the practice a little too late. Now in the case of OAV the cry for approval came from beekeepers not a chemical company. That is a big switch. What is not a switch is the increased dependency on chemicals and this approval has turned a corner where there is no turning back. Wishing for something and getting it could be the worse thing that ever happened to a beekeeper and his bees.
I agree with you 100%
Quote from: Acebird on April 29, 2016, 04:29:14 PM
There isn't even any push to find out how it works. This is not logical to me.
One again, I agree with you 100%
I use OAV because it is the lesser evil as i see it... I LIKE NEONICS mostly because they mean i do not have to go clean out dead hives after the sprayers pass over the fields, which is what I used to have to do.. there was no internet then.. I saw the planes, I knew I would be cleaning out dead hives that weekend... Neonics means I can rotate my comb and save my bees... for the most part.. And NO, it is not a perfect solution, but it is better than what used to happen.. YES I want better, just like treating for mites.. I order resistant bees every year to add to my apiary.. I put them in a yard I do not treat.. so far, 98% of those bees fail miserably to deal with the mites, the other 2%??? They are still there, and I make queens from them to make my splits and nucs... Unfortunately, 99.9% of those new queens/bees also fail to deal with the mite loads... There are JUST too many people who order packages every year, and flood the area with drones that have 0 resistance to be able to make any headway, and so for the majority of my hives, I use OAV, because it is the least damaging thing we have... sort of like voting for a president... You do your research, and force yourself to pick the one that will do the least damage to the lifestyle you live.
Which keeps me looking for answers, looking for research, both good and bad that is believable and realistic....
I need 100+ Hives to meet my pollination contracts. I need 50ish hives to make honey.. If I let them go with no treatments I cant meet either of the requirements/deadlines/numbers.. I would dearly LOVE to stop treating, but it will mean losing 99% of my hives and end my ability to pay bills...
I have tried SO MANY different strains/lines of bees that were guaranteed to be mite resistant, and had them fail miserably once moved to my location... different climate? Inability to winter well etc...
If it were possible to kill EVERY feral and non resistant bee in one fell swoop, i think we could repopulate with bees that can deal with the mites, but I see 3000 + packages delivered nearby each and every spring. Packages of generic bees that have 0 resistance, that produce drones and swarm... So i am open and eager to hear suggestions on a better way to keep my bees alive.
Quote from: OldMech on April 29, 2016, 10:43:28 PM
If it were possible to kill EVERY feral and non resistant bee in one fell swoop, i think we could repopulate with bees that can deal with the mites, but I see 3000 + packages delivered nearby each and every spring. Packages of generic bees that have 0 resistance, that produce drones and swarm... So i am open and eager to hear suggestions on a better way to keep my bees alive.
I know for me if I had 3,000 hives within flying range of my own hives. I would have a hard time selling pollination and or making honey.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: Acebird on April 29, 2016, 04:29:14 PM
Quote from: little john on April 29, 2016, 10:58:02 AM
And - honeybee spiracles are surrounded by hairs which will block particles the size of Oxalic Acid microcrystals - ergo - Oxalic Acid never gets to enter the body of the honey bee.
LJ, isn't the vapor a gas particle and that is too small to enter honeybee spiracles?
No - this is where the terminology being used isn't doing us any favours ...
A vapour IS a gas particle, certainly. When Oxalic Acid Dihydrate is heated, the first thing that happens is that it's water component (the Dihydrate) is boiled-off. Then, when the Oxalic Acid reaches it's sublimation temperature, it 'sublimates' - that is, it changes from a solid to a gaseous state, without going through a liquid phase. At that point in time, it IS a vapour, it IS a gas.
However, upon immediately leaving the heat source, it's temperature drops below it's sublimation temperature and the Oxalic Acid vapour reverts again to it's solid state, as individual molecules of solid OA. These immediately absorb moisture to again form the Dihydrate. These molecules of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate then clump together to form large (in molecular terms) microcrystals which become visible to the naked eye as a white 'smoke'. (The vapour itself is invisible)
All of this happens very quickly and within a short distance from the heated pan. Anyone who has experimented with various methods of vapourising OA will have observed that OA residue can often be found a few millimeters from the heat source, and certainly within a centimetre (say, half an inch).
What enters the beehive is NOT Oxalic Acid 'vapour', but rather a coarse dust of Oxalic Acid particles - which is why a) a good quality dust mask is all that is sufficient for respiratory protection, b) the dust particles never get to enter the body of the bee, and c) OA is unable to enter capped brood cells.
For as we know, the wax cap of brood cells is porous, which allows the developed bee to breath prior to it's emergence. But these pores are not large enough to allow the Oxalic Acid dust particles to enter. Formic Acid, on the other hand, forms a true vapour, and in this constant gaseous form it CAN enter brood cells via their porous caps - which is why Formic Acid can be used to treat those Varroa breeding on sealed brood, whereas Oxalic Acid cannot.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to describe the process as one of 'dusting' the bees with an aerosol of fine Oxalic Acid powder - with that aerosol having been generated by the action of vapourisation.
QuoteI am sure you would not intentionally do something to harm your honeybees but if you believe that OAV is the silver bullet against mites I can't see you pushing for research that would prove the harm. There isn't even any push to find out how it works. This is not logical to me.
Do we really NEED to know how it works ? Surely, all that's necessary is to know that it DOES work, and what doseage is safe.
As beekeepers we're often faced with decisions which have to be made. When faced with a hive infested with the Varroa mite, what choices of action are there ? Well, the first decision is whether to treat or not.
Now, I fully understand the thinking behind letting Nature work the problem out for itself. But - how many colonies of bees must die-out (and in the most miserable of ways) before a chance genetic mutation occurs which gives rise to a hygenic trait ? Should a breed of bee ever evolve with that stable genetic trait, then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy such a queen.
But - in the abence of any better solution - I treat the mites instead. And so the next decision is "what to treat them with ?" I have looked carefully at the proprietary medications on offer, most of which have dreadful side-issues, and the actions of which many mites have quickly become immune. But not so Oxalic Acid: there are no apparent side-effects, and no evidence of any immunity having developed over two decades - so it would appear to be the best solution to the presenting problem currently on offer.
But ... just suppose you're right, and there is some small amount of harm (although not yet detected) which occurs to the bees ... ? As I see it, it's a situation not dissimilar to that faced by surgeons in the Napoleonic and First World Wars when presented with a patient who had contracted gangrene - the decision of course being whether or not to cut-off the limb in order to save the patient's life. But such decisions are easy (if uncomfortable) to make - for it becomes 'the lesser of two evils', as it is for me with regard to the health of honey-bees.
LJ
Quote from: little john on April 30, 2016, 08:17:38 AM
No - this is where the terminology being used isn't doing us any favours ...
Thanks so much for the description of the process.
The reason you would want to know how the acid actually kills the mite or enters its system is to better understand what side affects the crystals might have on the colony. Just like it helps me to know how the process actually happens when using OAV as a pesticide.
In Oldmech's case where he has 3000 packages dropped on his door step he is forced to choose the lessor of two evils. I don't blame him. My concern is how does the cycle end? If you cannot sterilize the hive of mites you run the risk of breeding a stronger mite which can only be dealt with a stronger dose until you do reach that point where you can see physical harm to the bees. What then?
The state bee inspector was just at our meeting and I just asked a general question about OA. His comment was, use the OA labeled for bees and not wood bleach. Followed by the comment Brushy paid X amount (no where near what has been quoted here) to have it approved so they should be able to recoup the fees. So I basically see it as allowing Brushy to recoup. He would not say much more but stutter and say use the approved.
Everywhere I have read it has been said the wood bleach is the same. If not you can get the clinical/lab grade from e-bay at 50% less than the wood bleach. Yes actually cheaper.Do you really think some company is making a batch of different OA just for beekeepers. Seriously... we know it is about the money and red tape.
As far as treatment recommendations, info is everywhere. Once when broodless or if brood present 3 times at 7 day internals to cover emerging brood. No honey supers on. And studies show dribble kills brood not OAV.
I tried treatment free for about 7 years and thought I was doing good. And then everything crashed. No I am not smart enough to figure out why (mites, queens etc.) I think a little of all. I understand a bee colony is not a pet but I have read the analogy, if a dog has ticks do you do nothing to get rid of the ticks? Yes the dog can die from the ticks. Do I just shoot the dog? Do I really think the dog in going to naturally select so the tick does not hurt it? Naw, not in my dogs or my lifetime, so I treat the dog for ticks until something better comes along. I cant help my dog/bees or enjoy either if I don't keep them alive...
So if I have to treat to keep my bees alive then I figure OA is the best option of all the choices.
As far as approval...how many discussions on here in the past about bt. Bt is not approved for use in beehives in the US. Is this correct? Why, because the license expired and it was not financially a good choice for the company to pursue the licenses for beekeepers in the US for a product that could be bought of the shelve for pennies on the dollar. But I see folks recommend the other bt for use and they seem to have no issue recommending it. So why is it an issue with the OA?
And oldmech and littlejohn thanks for your very informative post...
Quote from: sc-bee on April 30, 2016, 10:58:28 AM
And oldmech and littlejohn thanks for your very informative post...
+1!
This product used to be sold in the USA until the licence ran out which I believe it was 1985. BT was never approved for wax moths that I know of in the USA.
http://www.beeworks.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=18
Wood bleach vs properly label chemical for OA
I see there is a discrepancy of about 2.5% Inert chemicals how do I know that they were not added some other chemical help stabilize the active ingredient. Unless you have some insight.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Ace already addressed this, but I wish to as well...
Do we really NEED to know how it works ? Surely, all that's necessary is to know that it DOES work, and what doseage is safe.
Knowing it does work means we use it, but is it going to turn out to be an agent orange that in 30/40 years destroys our bees? I am interested in the research mostly for my own comfort level.. I admit that the application of Neonicitinoids took us out of the "instant dead hive" problems of the land/aerial spraying, and for the most part it gives us three to five years to get old comb rotated out and new comb built, but it is certainly not the final answer. My interest is in knowing if OA is the final answer as far as treating is concerned, while we wait for the bees to catch up and become resistant to the mites. Michael Bush's point is one that concerns me to a point.. WHAT damage are we doing to the microbiology of the hive, and is there some type of modifications we can use with OAV to minimize that damage.. The research I want to see would be related to that.. When varroa arrived we used what we could to save the hives.. now we have a better choice, but is it the final answer? Yes I will use OAV because I dont have a choice, and its the best choice my research has shown as least detrimental.
As far as 3000 hives on my doorstep... not exactly, they are distributed through the south and east sides of the state, but the problem that entails, is that those bees will be producing swarms and drones. Some will abscond when they crash from mites etc... All of the work trying to introduce resistant genetics in our own apiaries and local populations is basically wiped out, NOT that i am going to stop trying, but consider this;
If EVERY beekeeper worked toward resistant genetics, then the effect would reverse and we would in a few years start to get bees, both tended and feral that would have SOME resistance and be better capable of coping, while at the moment, any resistant traits that do get out there, are diluted by the influx of the generic bees, and this will not change as long as most folks continue buying them... I DO advocate buying those packages, I just want to see the generic queens replaced once they are beginning to build up well... And Ace... THAT IS truly, my pipe dream!!! :grin:
LJ.. that was an awesome write up and explanation. WELL done!
Quote from: OldMech on April 30, 2016, 06:12:16 PM
If EVERY beekeeper worked toward resistant genetics, then the effect would reverse and we would in a few years start to get bees, both tended and feral that would have SOME resistance and be better capable of coping, while at the moment, any resistant traits that do get out there, are diluted by the influx of the generic bees, and this will not change as long as most folks continue buying them...
Even though Oxalic acid has become legal I am not convince that all / most will use it. Think about having 1000 hives plus, the time involved to go from hive to hive with a smoking gadget is likely not going to happen. The delivery has to be more commercial for large operations especially if it requires multiple applications.
So far OA is approved for use but not required as in a regulation. Now if you were to force people to use it resistant genetics would be out the window because it requires the parasite to be active in order to get resistance. Maybe this is the reason Europe has not sterilized the region of mites because they leave it up to the beekeeper to decide to use it. Should it be a regulation?
Acebird, there is a commercial unit on the market.
http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,4268.0.html
It looks a bit crude but do you have one? How wide spread do you think this gadget is. Maybe all the mites in the US will be gone and we won't have such a problem with them. I know, wishful thinking.
I thought about it, but with just one hive, I decided it may be a bit of overkill. :cool:
This is the only commercial vaporizer I know of that has any speed to it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jY3f8BzLw-k
Yes this company also have a Facebook page.
https://m.facebook.com/vmVaporizer/
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Jim 134 must have me on his ignore list. Otherwise, he would know that is the one I just posted.
Quote from: iddee on April 30, 2016, 10:17:06 PM
Jim 134 must have me on his ignore list. Otherwise, he would know that is the one I just posted.
iddee
In my opinion too much digging through forum. Especially on a mobile device. Just go right to the source.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134
OK. I don't have a mobile, so don't know how they work. At least they all should have it now.
Quote from: iddee on April 30, 2016, 11:01:35 PM
OK. I don't have a mobile, so don't know how they work. At least they all should have it now.
On the link that I clicked on at the beginning to go to the web page. The text and Links letters are the exact same color at least on my phone. Very hard to see an easy to miss and I did. The two best beekeeping forums that are friendly to mobile devices. One is www.beemaster.com and the other one is www.beesource.com. I would dare say that 85% of all the visits to a website is through a mobile device. I do realize this number could be very different for a form.
If you look at links on this very website you will see the letters are different colors. On the website you sent me to it has a very faint blue line under it hard to see on a mobile device. It will probably be very much easier on a large screen of a laptop or a desktop. It may be possible for you to change the link color itself on your very website. I hope you the best in all your adventures
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Thanks, Jim. I'll have the IT man check it out. On the big screen, the link turns blue when the curser is over it. As said, I don't have a mobile, so can't do anything there. I appreciate the feedback.
The people expect the link to stays Blue (contrasting color) all the time. Not just when you move the cursor over it . There are no cursor on a mobile phone or a tablet that I know of. I hope this helps you out.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: OldMech on April 30, 2016, 06:12:16 PM
Ace already addressed this, but I wish to as well...
Do we really NEED to know how it works ? Surely, all that's necessary is to know that it DOES work, and what doseage is safe.
Knowing it does work means we use it, but is it going to turn out to be an agent orange that in 30/40 years destroys our bees? I am interested in the research mostly for my own comfort level..
I've often though the same thing about chlorinated water supplies .... but I guess with each passing decade any perceived risk diminishes.
Although new to you guys, OA has something like a 20 year track record in Europe, and there hasn't been any indication of resistance or harm thus far. I'm not sure how long one needs to use a product in the field before it's considered generally safe - but one reason I have faith in OA, is that there is no profit motive to encourage chemical/drug companies to massage their trial figures - and if that sounds cynical ... well, to be honest I am.
But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ? Not treat ? Treat with a patented (shareholder-profitable) chemical ? Or adopt some kind of interruption to breeding in order to break the mite's life-cycle ?
I don't see any other viable options right now - formic acid, essential oils, vapourised mineral oil - none of those fill me with much enthusiasm.
I was sent a sample of Copper Gluconate to include in feed, but I haven't been able to test it yet, as I don't have a sufficiently serious mite problem.
LJ
Quote from: little john on May 02, 2016, 08:26:42 AM
But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ? Not treat ?
LJ
Yes of course. That is what was done for millions of years and worked perfectly. Now how is a test of twenty years going to match up to millions? If you have faith in 20 years why don't you have faith in millions?
Quote from: Acebird on May 02, 2016, 09:44:32 AM
Quote from: little john on May 02, 2016, 08:26:42 AM
But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ? Not treat ?
LJ
Yes of course. That is what was done for millions of years and worked perfectly. Now how is a test of twenty years going to match up to millions? If you have faith in 20 years why don't you have faith in millions?
Basically, Acebird, it's because we prefer today's living standard to the ones a million years ago. Modern chemicals have made them possible and we enjoy them.
> if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ? Not treat ?
That's what I've been doing for the last 13 years and for 39 of the last 42 years...
Quote from: Acebird on May 02, 2016, 09:44:32 AM
Quote from: little john on May 02, 2016, 08:26:42 AM
But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ? Not treat ?
LJ
Yes of course. That is what was done for millions of years and worked perfectly. Now how is a test of twenty years going to match up to millions? If you have faith in 20 years why don't you have faith in millions?
Because during those millions of years Natural Selection created a situation of geographical isolation - where the Varroa mite and Apis Cerana developed a mutually acceptable parasite-host relationship, geographically separated from Apis Meliifera. Who knows how many thousands or millions of years it took for that relationship to develop ? And then along came Homo Sapiens with his obsession with "more-and-more" and "better-and-better" (undefined) - who thinks he can outsmart Nature ...
And so bees from distant regions began to be imported to fuel Man's obsession - and we now know only too well the rest of the story.
I respect Michael Bush's track record with regard to non-treatment - but it hasn't worked for me. Many moons ago I tried not treating, and several hives quickly went down with DWV - and believe me, that's a pitiful sight for anyone to see. But, a few well-timed blasts of OAV, and they were up and running again. So no - I won't be trying non-treatment again.
Perhaps MB doesn't have a source of DW Virus near his apiaries ? Seems I might well have.
LJ
>Perhaps MB doesn't have a source of DW Virus near his apiaries ?
or perhaps not treating allows the less virulent form of DWV to take over...
http://www.nzbees.net/threads/varroa-resistant-survivors.7066/
or perhaps i have a lot less Varroa because of cell size...
Quote from: little john on May 02, 2016, 11:10:24 AM
Many moons ago I tried not treating, and several hives quickly went down with DWV - and believe me, that's a pitiful sight for anyone to see.
Yes, Nature can be cruel but if you don't get rid of the gene pool that is making the bees susceptible to varroa then how can the bees ever survive getting weaker and weaker? What is your feeling after 20 years of oxalic acid? Is the varroa problem getting worse or better (beekeeper point of view)? Worse, about the same, or better, which way will it go in the future? The approval in the US will certainly increase the usage.
Quote from: Jim 134 on May 01, 2016, 09:34:39 AM
The people expect the link to stays Blue (contrasting color) all the time. Not just when you move the cursor over it . There are no cursor on a mobile phone or a tablet that I know of. I hope this helps you out.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Check it out now, Jim, and tell me if it's better on the mobile units.
Thanks again for the feed back.
Quote from: iddee on May 02, 2016, 05:14:50 PM
Check it out now, Jim, and tell me if it's better on the mobile units.
Thanks again for the feed back.
iddee
You have links on my tablet and cell telephone are still black May 2nd Time 7:15 PM. Still no contrast of color text as same color as the link . Remember phones don't have curses they are touch screen. The same is true for a tablets. I do hope you can figure out your problem.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Jim, they were changed to orange yesterday, which was too bright, so changed to purple today. It is permanent, not just when you hover over them. Maybe some of the other mobile users can chime in and tell us what color the links are. It may be that you need to remove cookies before it changes, I don't know.
Where the heck is Finsky when you really need him?
Salvo
Quote from: Michael Bush on May 02, 2016, 10:10:33 AM
> if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ? Not treat ?
That's what I've been doing for the last 13 years and for 39 of the last 42 years...
Michael - as you've kindly given some figures - can I just check with you what these figures actually mean in terms of the Varroa mite population in your apiaries ?
Do these figures mean that for much of this time the apiaries have actually been Varroa-free ? Or is it that during much of this time a Varroa population has still been present, but that it has been reduced to a level that bees can cope with, without showing signs of distress or Varroa-related disease ?
Thanks, LJ
http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm
I lost them all to Varroa several times in the 90s before I went to natural comb and small cell. They are certainly not Varroa free. No bees in North America are.
Quote from: iddee on May 02, 2016, 09:24:52 PM
Jim, they were changed to orange yesterday, which was too bright, so changed to purple today. It is permanent, not just when you hover over them. Maybe some of the other mobile users can chime in and tell us what color the links are. It may be that you need to remove cookies before it changes, I don't know.
iddee
Did clean the cache ..Works great I see a magenta color real close to
purple. There a lot of contrast. Glad you got it figured out. Thanks for the idea of clean the cache that is the same as cookies. On this smartphone and tablet are both on Android platform.
I'd like to make a suggestion. I don't know how you would do it but anybody's been to your site before on a mobile device to see the contrast . Of the links They are going to have to clean the cache I believe. I had to do it to my telephone and to my tablet . Also they may have to clean the cache or cookies on any touch screen devices. So they will be able to see the contrast of the links
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/thermosolar-hive-healthy-bees-healthy-honey--5#/
Well this puts a different slant on things ... 100% varroa kill by the sun. How about it LJ?
Jim, you might could post a question concerning your phone/laptop/or what ever in the "Computer Tech Help" on here. There's some bright folks in there.
I still have the flip phone...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/thermosolar-hive-healthy-bees-healthy-honey--5#/
Well this puts a different slant on things ... 100% varroa kill by the sun. How about it LJ?
Sounds too good to be true - not saying it's not. Does anyone know of someone or has anyone had any experience with this? Isn't the 104 outside the bee's comfort zone?
Thanks for the help, Jim. I guess we can quit hijacking this thread now
Quote from: GSF on May 03, 2016, 09:16:58 AM
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/thermosolar-hive-healthy-bees-healthy-honey--5#/
Well this puts a different slant on things ... 100% varroa kill by the sun. How about it LJ?
Sounds too good to be true - not saying it's not. Does anyone know of someone or has anyone had any experience with this? Isn't the 104 outside the bee's comfort zone?
I know when I was in Peace Corps in North Africa. The temperature get up to a 100-115 F on a regular basis in the summertime. yes I was a beekeeper and the Bees use did use a lot of
water.
I also know there was not many Varroa Mites on bees at this temperature they were a lot on the comb and the side walls of the hive. The local beekeepers took advantage of this. :shocked: What they would do about an hour before sunset. They would get a plastic sheet the same size as the bottom board. And would cover it with olive oil. And they would get up in the morning before sunrise and pull a piece of plastic out. :wink:
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Quote from: iddee on May 03, 2016, 10:02:03 AM
Thanks for the help, Jim. I guess we can quit hijacking this thread now
Glad that's straightened out :wink:
Quote from: Acebird on May 03, 2016, 09:12:10 AM
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/thermosolar-hive-healthy-bees-healthy-honey--5#/
Well this puts a different slant on things ... 100% varroa kill by the sun. How about it LJ?
A good sales-pitch - but as a method, it's a total waste of time. Even if it produces a 100% mite kill - it's still a waste of time, because it doesn't actually solve the problem - it just puts it off for a while. I'll start another thread to expand on this - as these sorts of innovative ideas (although clever) fail to address the bigger picture.
LJ
ALL natural cell hives with "supposed" resistant queens from multiple sources had a MUCH higher number of mites to the hives I had 18 miles from them. Believing that they MIGHT be able to kick in resistance, I left those hives alone. The wax moth sure appreciated that. I have tried three times.. 7 hives, 12 hives and 9 hives... The fourth test is underway with different bees. Only four hives as I am beginning to lose hope. As of last week, the mite levels are 6.6 times as high as the level of the mites in my home and other yards that get treated.. I keep hoping that small cell natural cell thing will work when combined with resistant bees, and I keep losing hives.. I WILL keep trying as long as I can find different strains of "resistant" bees to try, but the hope is beginning to fade.
The commercial OA Vaporizor pictured is being used in several large apiaries that i know of, and one package production apiary that i know of.. Walk up, blow the vapor in, move to the next hive. The price of it is still a bit high for my liking.. I built a cart, with a gas motor, a one wire GM Alternator and a deep cycle battery, and run two vaporizors.. Works out at just about the right amount of time so that i can roll along pretty smoothly.. My palleted hives were built with the correct sized opening JUST to fit the vaporizor.. At this point, the cost of OA and ease of use is a blessing.. Having bees that would survive would be a bigger blessing... Takes a long day to treat all the hives this way.
Quote from: Acebird on May 02, 2016, 09:44:32 AM
Quote from: little john on May 02, 2016, 08:26:42 AM
But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ? Not treat ?
LJ
Yes of course. That is what was done for millions of years and worked perfectly. Now how is a test of twenty years going to match up to millions? If you have faith in 20 years why don't you have faith in millions?
Well it wasn't even 50 years ago, that nobody in the States even had mites on their bees, so the time factor doesn't apply here.
Also, I am at odds with what is going on with this anti treatment attitude towards bees. But the same people that have this attitude would not say, hey, only my dogs that can resist flees should survive and all my dogs that get infested and overwhelmed shall die and that will be better for the survival of the species. Or, deny those injections for their cattle, horses, chickens and all their other animals, to keep them healthy and alive. I just do not understand the difference.
Quote from: rookie2531 on May 30, 2016, 09:46:02 PM
Also, I am at odds with what is going on with this anti treatment attitude towards bees. But the same people that have this attitude would not say, hey, only my dogs that can resist flees should survive and all my dogs that get infested and overwhelmed shall die and that will be better for the survival of the species. Or, deny those injections for their cattle, horses, chickens and all their other animals, to keep them healthy and alive. I just do not understand the difference.
I don't know if I am one that you are at odds with since I have never treated my bees(and don't plan on treating). I can understand what you are saying but I disagree with some of it. I the problem is not necessarily whether you treat or not. It is the overtreating or unnecessary treating that is the real problem.
Why not regular fumings of oxalic? That was the original question. Would you regularly inject your cattle, horses, chickens and all your other animals even if they didn't need it? Do you decide or do you have a vet make that decision? I don't know many beeks that are as qualified as a vet. Yet they are treating with chemicals that they know little or nothing about. You could even go farther and say what about all the medications that us humans take all the time that is unnecessary. Do you take an aspirin everyday because you might get a headache?
There was another post on here where a new beek was told by the beek that sold them their nuc that they needed to treat there nuc in a few weeks. There is the problem. The treatment of bees that may or may not need it.
Quote from: rookie2531 on May 30, 2016, 09:46:02 PM
I just do not understand the difference.
The difference is every animal you speak of is an individual that can be tested for the problem they are treated for. Bees are a colony and not every bee in the colony is sick but there is no way to treat the sick ones and not treat the ones that are not sick. Furthermore by treating you suppress their natural immune system from combating the disease on their own. That makes the species weaker and weaker in the long run.
God forbid, if one member of your family gets cancer should every member of the family get treated with chemo, radiation and surgery. What do you think the end result of that protocol would be over the long run? How about lesser diseases; pneumonia, flues, allergies, general infections etc.?
Quote from: rookie2531 on May 30, 2016, 09:46:02 PM
Also, I am at odds with what is going on with this anti treatment attitude towards bees. But the same people that have this attitude would not say, hey, only my dogs that can resist flees should survive and all my dogs that get infested and overwhelmed shall die and that will be better for the survival of the species. Or, deny those injections for their cattle, horses, chickens and all their other animals, to keep them healthy and alive. I just do not understand the difference.
We do exactly this with our livestock.
I keep sheep and poultry - if I have to deworm a sheep more than once in its life, it gets culled. I only breed the animals that don't have parasite problems. If chickens, ducks, geese or turkey are frequently getting sick, I cull. This means I have better breeding animals, and better offspring. I haven't had any problem animals in years - the weak lines are gone.
There is a major difference in pets, and livestock. With a pet, you are trying to make that animal's quality of life as high as possible. With livestock (and bees are livestock) you are trying to make the population's quality of life as high as possible. With livestock, I'm concerned about multiple generations, and how my actions affect the quality of future generations. With my pets, I'm not - they're neutered or spayed.
Quote from: cao on May 31, 2016, 01:07:26 AM
Quote from: rookie2531 on May 30, 2016, 09:46:02 PM
Also, I am at odds with what is going on with this anti treatment attitude towards bees. But the same people that have this attitude would not say, hey, only my dogs that can resist flees should survive and all my dogs that get infested and overwhelmed shall die and that will be better for the survival of the species. Or, deny those injections for their cattle, horses, chickens and all their other animals, to keep them healthy and alive. I just do not understand the difference.
I don't know if I am one that you are at odds with since I have never treated my bees(and don't plan on treating). I can understand what you are saying but I disagree with some of it. I the problem is not necessarily whether you treat or not. It is the overtreating or unnecessary treating that is the real problem.
Why not regular fumings of oxalic? That was the original question. Would you regularly inject your cattle, horses, chickens and all your other animals even if they didn't need it? Do you decide or do you have a vet make that decision? I don't know many beeks that are as qualified as a vet. Yet they are treating with chemicals that they know little or nothing about. You could even go farther and say what about all the medications that us humans take all the time that is unnecessary. Do you take an aspirin everyday because you might get a headache?
There was another post on here where a new beek was told by the beek that sold them their nuc that they needed to treat there nuc in a few weeks. There is the problem. The treatment of bees that may or may not need it.
As a matter of fact I do take aspirin every day. According to the doctor's Direction. It is for severity of heart attacks someday you may understand.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
He must be young and invincible. Hasn't yet had that talk with a cardiologist.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on May 31, 2016, 10:12:43 PM
He must be young and invincible. Hasn't yet had that talk with a cardiologist.
.
I definitely advise you to do this under doctor's advice.If you read the original post you see I said that.
Here are some guidelines that may help you .. along with your Physician's advice.. so you can make a educated choice about your treatment.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-disease/in-depth/daily-aspirin-therapy/art-20046797
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Not only asprin everyday, but we inject our children with prevention treatments also. So, this debate will always be here and never end, but there are contradictions in it.
Does not public drinking water municipality. Still do General treatments of fluoride in public drinking water? And also do spray for mosquitoes and other pests..
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Kurt Webster.......................
I read this guys stuff last night and between him and Mr. Bush I think they make a solid case for not treating and letting the bees adapt. I will probably pursue that route and let the chips fall where they may and when I lose hives, as I know I will, I will try to capture wild swarms. I know of a few hives that have been around for 3 plus years that must be throwing off swarms every year.
Something that you might like to listen to. As far as I'm concerned Kurt Webster is Miles Ahead of every other treatment free beekeeping in the USA. He does sell Queens once in awhile. But I believe most of his list are 2 to 3 years waiting time. And yes I have bought some of his Queens in the past.
http://tfb.podbean.com/mobile/e/treatment-free-beekeeping-podcast-episode-32-kirk-in-vermont/
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Did they do well for you and would it be worth buying seeing how our climate is so different?