Why not regular fumings of oxalic?

[Acebird]

No - this is where the terminology being used isn't doing us any favours ...

Thanks so much for the description of the process.
The reason you would want to know how the acid actually kills the mite or enters its system is to better understand what side affects the crystals might have on the colony.  Just like it helps me to know how the process actually happens when using OAV as a pesticide.

In Oldmech's case where he has 3000 packages dropped on his door step he is forced to choose the lessor of two evils.  I don't blame him.  My concern is how does the cycle end?  If you cannot sterilize the hive of mites you run the risk of breeding a stronger mite which can only be dealt with a stronger dose until you do reach that point where you can see physical harm to the bees.  What then?

[sc-bee]

The state bee inspector was just at our meeting and I just asked a general question about OA. His comment was, use the OA labeled for bees and not wood bleach. Followed by the comment Brushy paid X amount (no where near what has been quoted here) to have it approved so they should be able to recoup the fees. So I basically see it as allowing Brushy to recoup. He would not say much more but stutter and say use the approved.

Everywhere I have read it has been said the wood bleach is the same. If not you can get the clinical/lab grade from e-bay at 50% less than the wood bleach. Yes actually cheaper.Do you really think some company is making a batch of different OA just for beekeepers. Seriously... we know it is about the money and red tape.

As far as treatment recommendations, info is everywhere. Once when broodless or if brood present 3 times at 7 day internals to cover emerging brood. No honey supers on. And studies show dribble kills brood not OAV.

I tried treatment free for about 7 years and thought I was doing good. And then everything crashed. No I am not smart enough to figure out why (mites, queens etc.) I think a little of all.  I understand a bee colony is not a pet but I have read the analogy, if a dog has ticks do you do nothing to get rid of the ticks? Yes the dog can die from the ticks. Do I just shoot the dog? Do I really think the dog in going to naturally select so the tick does not hurt it? Naw, not in my dogs or my lifetime,  so I treat the dog for ticks until something better comes along. I cant help my dog/bees or enjoy either if I don't keep them alive...

So if I have to treat to keep my bees alive then I figure OA is the best option of all the choices.

As far as approval...how many discussions on here in the past about bt. Bt is not approved for use in beehives in the US. Is this correct? Why, because the license expired and it was not financially a good choice for the company to pursue the licenses for beekeepers in the US for a product that could be bought of the shelve for pennies on the dollar. But I see folks recommend the other bt for use and they seem to have no issue recommending it. So why is it an issue with the OA?

And oldmech and littlejohn thanks for your very informative post...

[tjc1]

And oldmech and littlejohn thanks for your very informative post...

+1!

[Jim134]

This product used to be sold in the USA until the licence ran out which I believe it was 1985. BT was never approved for wax moths that I know of in the USA.
http://www.beeworks.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=18
Wood bleach vs properly label chemical for OA
I see there is a discrepancy of about 2.5%  Inert chemicals how do I know that they were not added some other chemical help stabilize the active ingredient. Unless you have some insight.


                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[OldMech]

Ace already addressed this, but I wish to as well...


     Do we really NEED to know how it works ?  Surely, all that's necessary is to know that it DOES work, and what doseage is safe. 

   Knowing it does work means we use it, but is it going to turn out  to be an agent orange that in 30/40 years destroys our bees?  I am interested in the research mostly for my own comfort level..    I admit that the application of Neonicitinoids took us out of the "instant dead hive" problems of the land/aerial spraying, and for the most part it gives us three to five years to get old comb rotated out and new comb built, but it is certainly not the final answer.   My interest is in knowing if OA is the final answer as far as treating is concerned, while we wait for the bees to catch up and become resistant to the mites. Michael Bush's point is one that concerns me to a point..   WHAT damage are we doing to the microbiology of the hive, and is there some type of modifications we can use with OAV to minimize that damage..   The research I want to see would be related to that..   When varroa arrived we used what we could to save the hives.. now we have a better choice, but is it the final answer?   Yes I will use OAV because I dont have a choice, and its the best choice my research has shown as least detrimental.

    As far as 3000 hives on my doorstep... not exactly, they are distributed through the south and east sides of the state, but the problem that entails, is that those bees will be producing swarms and drones. Some will abscond when they crash from mites etc...   All of the work trying to introduce resistant genetics in our own apiaries and local populations is basically wiped out, NOT that i am going to stop trying, but consider this;
   If EVERY beekeeper worked toward resistant genetics, then the effect would reverse and we would in a few years start to get bees, both tended and feral that would have SOME resistance and be better capable of coping, while at the moment, any resistant traits that do get out there, are diluted by the influx of the generic bees, and this will not change as long as most folks continue buying them...   I DO advocate buying those packages, I just want to see the generic queens replaced once they are beginning to build up well...   And Ace... THAT IS truly, my pipe dream!!!   

  LJ.. that was an awesome write up and explanation. WELL done!

[Acebird]

   If EVERY beekeeper worked toward resistant genetics, then the effect would reverse and we would in a few years start to get bees, both tended and feral that would have SOME resistance and be better capable of coping, while at the moment, any resistant traits that do get out there, are diluted by the influx of the generic bees, and this will not change as long as most folks continue buying them...

Even though Oxalic acid has become legal I am not convince that all / most will use it.  Think about having 1000 hives plus, the time involved to go from hive to hive with a smoking gadget is likely not going to happen.  The delivery has to be more commercial for large operations especially if it requires multiple applications.

So far OA is approved for use but not required as in a regulation.  Now if you were to force people to use it resistant genetics would be out the window because it requires the parasite to be active in order to get resistance.  Maybe this is the reason Europe has not sterilized the region of mites because they leave it up to the beekeeper to decide to use it.  Should it be a regulation?

[iddee]

Acebird, there is a commercial unit on the market.

http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,4268.0.html

[Acebird]

It looks a bit crude but do you have one?  How wide spread do you think this gadget is.  Maybe all the mites in the US will be gone and we won't have such a problem with them.  I know, wishful thinking.

[iddee]

I thought about it, but with just one hive, I decided it may be a bit of overkill.   

[Jim134]

This is the only commercial vaporizer I know of that has any speed to it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jY3f8BzLw-k
Yes this company also have a Facebook page.

https://m.facebook.com/vmVaporizer/


          BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :)

[iddee]

Jim 134 must have me on his ignore list. Otherwise, he would know that is the one I just posted.

[Jim134]

Jim 134 must have me on his ignore list. Otherwise, he would know that is the one I just posted.

iddee

In my opinion too much digging through forum. Especially on a mobile device. Just go right to the source.


        BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[iddee]

OK. I don't have a mobile, so don't know how they work. At least they all should have it now.

[Jim134]

OK. I don't have a mobile, so don't know how they work. At least they all should have it now.

On the link that I clicked on at the beginning to go to the web page. The text and Links letters are the exact same color at least on my phone. Very hard to see an easy to miss and I did. The two best beekeeping forums that are friendly to mobile devices. One is www.beemaster.com and the other one is www.beesource.com. I would dare say that 85% of all the visits to a website is through a mobile device. I do realize this number could be very different for a form.
If you look at links on this very website you will see the letters are different colors. On the website you sent me to it has a very faint blue line under it hard to see on a mobile device. It will probably be very much easier on a large screen of a laptop or a desktop. It may be possible for you to change the link color itself on your very website. I hope you the best in all your adventures

            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[iddee]

Thanks, Jim. I'll have the IT man check it out. On the big screen, the link turns blue when the curser is over it. As said, I don't have a mobile, so can't do anything there. I appreciate the feedback.

[Jim134]

The people expect  the link to stays Blue (contrasting color) all the time. Not just when you move the cursor over it . There are no cursor on a mobile phone or a tablet that I know of. I  hope this helps you out.




                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[little john]

Ace already addressed this, but I wish to as well...


     Do we really NEED to know how it works ?  Surely, all that's necessary is to know that it DOES work, and what doseage is safe. 

   Knowing it does work means we use it, but is it going to turn out  to be an agent orange that in 30/40 years destroys our bees?  I am interested in the research mostly for my own comfort level..   

I've often though the same thing about chlorinated water supplies ....  but I guess with each passing decade any perceived risk diminishes.

Although new to you guys, OA has something like a 20 year track record in Europe, and there hasn't been any indication of resistance or harm thus far.  I'm not sure how long one needs to use a product in the field before it's considered generally safe - but one reason I have faith in OA, is that there is no profit motive to encourage chemical/drug companies to massage their trial figures - and if that sounds cynical ... well, to be honest I am.

But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ?  Not treat ?  Treat with a patented (shareholder-profitable) chemical ?  Or adopt some kind of interruption to breeding in order to break the mite's life-cycle ?

I don't see any other viable options right now - formic acid, essential oils, vapourised mineral oil - none of those fill me with much enthusiasm.

I was sent a sample of Copper Gluconate to include in feed, but I haven't been able to test it yet, as I don't have a sufficiently serious mite problem.

LJ

[Acebird]

But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ?  Not treat ?
LJ

Yes of course.  That is what was done for millions of years and worked perfectly.  Now how is a test of twenty years going to match up to millions?  If you have faith in 20 years why don't you have faith in millions?

[iddee]

But for me, one BIG question remains with regard to this issue ... if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ?  Not treat ?
LJ

Yes of course.  That is what was done for millions of years and worked perfectly.  Now how is a test of twenty years going to match up to millions?  If you have faith in 20 years why don't you have faith in millions?

Basically, Acebird, it's because we prefer today's living standard to the ones a million years ago. Modern chemicals have made them possible and we enjoy them.

[Michael Bush]

> if you're not going to treat with OA - then what are you going to do ?  Not treat ?

That's what I've been doing for the last 13 years and for 39 of the last 42 years...