Hi Folks
It?s good to be here as a member of the forum. This topic has probably been covered a million times before but it?s still new and exciting for me and I would like to share with you some of my experiences in the field of comb honey. Here in Australia, a few people play with cut comb or chunk honey but I haven?t seen a lot of comb honey sections. A couple of suppliers sell Ceracell Rounds kits (Ross Rounds) and that?s about it. I ended up buying a kit and the consumables required to make the rounds. The big killer for me was the cost of the rings, foundation, packaging and labels. It was going to cost me around $3 per round to produce as all of this gear had to be posted. Anyway, I bit the bullet and bought everything and started to play. After spending all of that money, I started to think about other possibilities. Could I come up with my own system? Are there other options? And the journey begins. I am hoping that people can share some of their ideas here. Like most of you, I?m a sponge and soak up comments, thoughts, pictures, knowledge, criticisms etc etc etc. roll it around in the grey matter for a while and then try to churn out a better way of doing things. (Hope that makes sense) I?ll get the ball rolling by showing you where I started and then show you the developmental stages that I?ve been working through. I?ll take a photo or two and post them. (Sorry I?m a visual person) Hopefully I?ll be able to sort that process out. Will catch you guys later.
Cheers
Les
My first play with comb honey sections started about 3 years ago. I had an idea that if I could make some wooden round sections, it would be a very saleable item that would look quite attractive on a cheese platter. I made a frame with circular cutouts to fit into a deep body and then tried to bend some thin strips of wood into a circle after sitting the timber in warm water for about an hour. Those circles looked horrible. They were kinked, out of shape and just looked plain ugly. I pushed and shoved those blobs of timber into a reasonable shape and then jammed them into the frame. Oversized circles of foundation were then cut with a knife and they were then pushed into the centre of the section frames. I tried to convince myself that the bees wouldn?t care what it looks like, they would play with the foundation anyway. That assumption was correct. The bees quickly started to draw the foundation and actually pushed some of it over as it wasn?t secured overly well. I quickly learnt two lessons on that experimental frame. 1) The hive was just average and wasn?t bursting with bees. This resulted in a slow formation of the comb and 2) I placed the frame onto the hive towards the end of a flow which slowed things up. After a couple of months I pulled the frame out. Two of the sections were capped and the rest were partially filled. It took me 15 minutes to release the sections from the frame. The bees had filled in gaps between the frame and the sections with propolis and I mucked around with a knife and screwdriver trying to remove them. The frame was then thrown into a corner of the shed and the whole adventure was deemed a partial failure. COVID lockdown this year was the saviour for the frame. Being stuck at home forced me into doing some of those jobs that you don?t enjoy. For me it was stripping out the workshop and having a rethink about how the shed was set up. It was a chance to get rid of those bits and pieces that you accumulate over time. You know what I?m talking about. ?That may come in handy one day? type stuff. Tools were re racked, beehive material stacked neatly to save space etc. etc. I eventually found the frame. I was just about to throw it out but changed my mind at the last minute. From that point on, the mind clicked into gear and the experimenting and development started. Here?s a pic of the original frame. I kept it just for reference and a starting point.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
September was just around the corner (spring) so I knew I had to get moving if I was going to catch the early flow. I?ll continue tomorrow if I can rustle up a few photos of the next stage in the frame development.
Cheers
Les
Interesting! Is there any reason other than aesthetics that you want rounds? Because I'd have to think squares of comb would be easier. Heck, you can just cut up any nice frame of honey into cut comb, as long as the wax is thin enough and you don't use any foundation. I read a really comprehensive article about comb honey a while back. It was published in the American Bee Journal originally, but you can read the article for free on the author's website, which is one of my favorite beekeeping websites. Perhaps it will have some good ideas and tips for you.
https://www.honeybeesuite.com/making-comb-honey-should-be-simple-and-fun/
Thanks for the reply. You are correct. I have played with cut comb and still make a bit from time to time using foundation-less frames. I wanted to try something a little different and that is why I started experimenting. The big advantage of this type of system is at harvest time. You don?t have to handle the comb. Sections are removed from the frame and they are ready to be packaged. When I get some photos organised, Ill post up the next stage of the development of that frame. From an aesthetics point of view the rounds actually look quite good. Going down this path requires a bit of extra work (especially the initial stages) but I reckon it?s worth it. As I?m retired and treat this pastime as a hobby, time is not the issue. Actually the time spent in the workshop making the frames and jigs required is a real joy. From a commercial perspective, I would be ignoring this thread and just treating it for what it is ie. just a bit of fun. Thanks for the link, I will have a look later. I appreciate the time you have taken to post it. Any tips picked up from the article will be helpful.
Cheers
Les
Quote from: Lesgold on December 16, 2021, 09:58:04 PM
Thanks for the reply. You are correct. I have played with cut comb and still make a bit from time to time using foundation-less frames. I wanted to try something a little different and that is why I started experimenting. The big advantage of this type of system is at harvest time. You don?t have to handle the comb. Sections are removed from the frame and they are ready to be packaged. When I get some photos organised, Ill post up the next stage of the development of that frame. From an aesthetics point of view the rounds actually look quite good. Going down this path requires a bit of extra work (especially the initial stages) but I reckon it?s worth it. As I?m retired and treat this pastime as a hobby, time is not the issue. Actually the time spent in the workshop making the frames and jigs required is a real joy. From a commercial perspective, I would be ignoring this thread and just treating it for what it is ie. just a bit of fun. Thanks for the link, I will have a look later. I appreciate the time you have taken to post it. Any tips picked up from the article will be helpful.
Cheers
Les
I totally get it, I was just trying to understand the goals of the project. I'm a hobbyist too; I only have 4 hives at the moment, and I can relate to doing things the less efficient but perhaps more enjoyable way. I'm not very handy when it comes to building, so I probably won't have much to offer from a mechanics perspective, but I'm sure I'll follow the thread with interest.
I sell a lot of comb honey but have given up on trying to get the rounds. My bees simply don't fill them well. I use thin foundation (or strips) and either sell whole combs packeted with a stand or use a cut comb honey cutter (or a knife) to cut sections out to fill the cut comb containers. I'd love to sell nothing else as it's much easier to do than extracting honey which is a real chore.
(https://i.ibb.co/GdCXvR3/comb.jpg)
Hi NigelP
That?s a nice collection of cut comb there well done. I would love to see a picture of the stand for the full comb. I like that idea. I understand what you are saying about the rounds. The commercial kit that I bought hasn?t been as successful as I would have hoped. The bees just don?t seem to like the plastic frames. That?s another story in itself. I totally agree with your last statement. I need to start extracting in a few days. 35 degrees and a bee suit don?t seem to get along.
Cheers
Les
OK, it?s about time to continue with the story. The next stage of the rounds development was one of those ?accidental light bulb moments.? I?d just come in from pulling some frames from a few hives in preparation for extracting. I was hot, sweaty and tired. Just needed a break for a while before getting back into it. Grabbed an almost empty bottle of soft drink from the fridge and sat down. I was just sitting on the lounge with the plastic bottle on my lap and then it hit me. Could I use this PET bottle in some way? It?s food grade and its round. And that?s where it all started.
Lesgold I am enjoying your post. Keep them coming...
Phillip
This is the type of bottle that I started using. It has a cylindrical section that allowed me to cut 3 rounds. The consumption of Pepsi increased dramatically over the next few days so that I could get all the material I needed to fill a frame with the PET rounds. The first round was cut with a pair of scissors. That was a painful job and didn?t look all that good. After a bit of experimenting, I came up with a technique whereby my wood lathe could be used to cut the rounds. It now takes me about 2 or 3 minutes to cut them accurately.
I was lucky enough to have a holesaw of the correct size and the frame holes were then cut to suit the rounds. They fitted extremely well and did not move around in the frame. The only issue I had was removing the rounds. This was going to be an ongoing problem so a simple two part frame was developed.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
One side of the frame is not fixed. Two locating dowels (up in the corners near the two x marks) help align the removable plywood side. 4 homemade clips keep the side of the frame cramped in place. It?s very simple but it works a treat. Rounds are easy to remove without causing any damage to the wax comb. These frames now take me about an hour to make so it?s not a big time investment.
Sorry Phillip,
You responded just as I was posting. Still trying to sort out how to add multiple photos without causing issues. Have had to modify the post to get things working. Will sort it out eventually.
Cheers
Les
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Will sort it out eventually.
No doubt, you are doing pretty good even now.
I came up with a method for cutting circles of thin foundation (or starter strips) for the rounds. The starter strips (or foundation) are held in place with a bit wax applied with a small art brush. A plug was made to push the foundation into place and keep it in the correct location while it is secured.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
This is an example of what it looks like. That was just a standard piece of foundation that I had lying around that I used for this photo. I normally make really thin foundation for this purpose. You may be able to see the blob of wax holding the foundation in place. The bees move this wax around and use it as required.
And finally for today?s post, an example of what the bees produce. This came out of a hive 3 days ago. All 8 pieces looked just like this one.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
And a few more just before they were packaged up.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
They do look good but there are issues. First of all it is recycled material so in this format they can?t be sold commercially. The second issue is that it is plastic and I would prefer to head towards a renewable and sustainable material. The story continues in a day or so when I can get organised.
Cheers for now
Les
That looks really good! I like it!
Wow, that's genius!
Thanks guys. I was really pleased with how it came together. A couple of months ago I put a bit of a clip together to show what it looks like and how the bees take to the frame. Not sure how to insert the shortcut but this is where you will find it
https://youtu.be/uK17ZRBdpcI
Les I am impressed with your out of the box method. Have you figured a way to stop the access holes. If not I have an out of the box idea that just 'might' fix that small problem.
Phillip
Hi Phillip,
Would love to hear your thoughts. I reckon that?s why we?re here. That video was the initial trial using just starter strips. From memory, the bees back filled 6 out of the 8 rounds. If I use thin foundation, that problem basically disappears. Starter strips are my preference however, as I would like to see the bees build all of the comb. In saying that, I can make very lightweight foundation by winding the rollers of the foundation mill up as tight as they will go. I have made a couple of changes from that first video. I?ll get something together in the next couple of days. Please post your suggestion. I would like as many ideas and options as possible. My hope is that fellow beekeepers draw inspiration from these basic ideas and improve upon what has been presented.
Cheers
Les
Les, even on foundation-less frames I have noticed access holes build by bees on some frames. However in your unique, exclusive method these access holes has to be a thorn in your side. So: A what if question.
What if you were to drill, beside each of these rounds, a hole of adiquite bee 'access diameter, adding a clear plastic tube to line this hole, creating easy, built to go, access from side to side of the frame for the bees' use. I am thinking this might do it, 'hoping' this may satisfy the bees need for access, thus eliminating the access holes through the combs, while allowing access directly and jointly, 'against' these rounds as described.
Phillip
I like your thinking. I?ll try that when I get a chance (at this stage it will be after Christmas) I reckon if they like the access holes, they?ll use them. If they don?t like them, they?ll fill them in. Tube Inside diameter would need to be reflective of bee space. What size would you suggest?
It is just the beginning of winter here in my part of the world. To make sure of an adequate bee access hole I would like to measure an existing hole which may be found in the middle of a foundation-less frame. The diameter thickness of the tube would need to be considered and added to insure adequate bee access space.
As I stated earlier, I am very impressed with your system and plan to incorporate this in a couple of my hives, if not more, next spring, (Early May). I can't thank you enough for sharing this information as the timing is just right for me. I have a few months of off season to build the wood-ware needed before spring.
Phillip
Les, I have another question for you. Should these fames be built in two styles with access holes as we are talking about, staggering the frame designs from frame to frame, or build every frame in unisons. The idea is attempting to create an environment as natural as possible for reasons of hoping the bees will work from frame to frame using 'the' access tubes, without making new access holes in the round combs. Your thoughts?
I am thinking it will be ok to build each frame to the same measured specs. Frame to frame, instead of offsetting frame to frame, but I'm not sure and I'm only guessing.
Good point Phillip. I am only running one or two of these frames in a hive. Each one is placed between full, straight frames of honey. I take a bit of time setting each one in place ensuring there is good bee space to ensure the comb will be drawn nicely. If you were to go for smaller rounds, the off set method you described would be excellent. I can see you are an ideas man. Thanks again. I have been considering making smaller rounds using new plastic jars as a basis for the cylinders but haven?t tried it as yet. By the way, I think there could be a good market for slightly smaller rounds. Consider a family Christmas party with a cheese platter. A small round of comb honey looks and tastes a million dollars in that situation. What I like about this design is the appearance of the cells through the plastic ring. It does look effective. They are also very quick to make and put into the frame. Give me a few days to get some family stuff done and I?ll present the latest part of this saga. Some people may not like the idea of using plastic so I have gone back to using timber for the rounds as another option. It involves a bit more work but I?ve refined a technique that allows the rounds to be constructed quickly. Im pretty excited about this design as it looks organic and natural. Im ready to pull the first wooden test rounds off a hive in a few days. They were placed on a hive on the 29th of November and checked on the 16th of December. They were filled with honey and fully capped. Now that was impressive.
Just another point Phillip. I did make a YouTube clip on the construction process that I went through to make the frame. Sorry, it?s pretty boring stuff and I?m not much of a presenter but there may be enough in the video to show how the frame is made.
Cheers
Les
https://youtu.be/S4ouJeRZLWo
Thank you Les..
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I am only running one or two of these frames in a hive.
Have you experimented, by adding more frames per hive? I wonder what would be the results if a full row of 10 frames of these you have invented? What if a complete super, was introduced a box at a time, stacking just as frame honey would be done. I realize
'very close monitoring' would have to be implemented and
imperative; Looked upon as a whole new way of management. A reprogramming of ones mindset in management so to speak. Making sure overcrowding would not lead to swarming for one example. It might take some refining, learning as we go, to reach satisfactory success? In other words (work, work, work), but if successful the work just might be worth the effort, outweighing the exertion involved?
Phillip
I like you way of thinking. I might make a frame or two for myself. Do you have access for sheets of wood veneer? If you have a sheet wide enough to make the circumference of your hole, then you can cross cut the veneer. it would then bend very easily. Another option would be card board or even some heavy paper.
Hi Phillip,
I think a full box of these frames would work well. I haven?t got that far yet as I?ve only been working on these ideas for a couple of months. I could fit 9 of these frames in a 10 frame Aussie box (they are poorly designed and are a bit to narrow). You may be able to get 10 in one of your boxes. When you think about it, there is actually a lot less work for the bees to draw out one of these frames than a standard frame. (The comb area is only 60% of a full frame) Therefore the construction of comb should occur very quickly and with less energy use. What I have found is that it is important to manipulate the frames to keep the comb building consistent between each frame so that you don?t end up with fat and skinny rounds. I am also working on another entirely different system where this issue showed up. (That?s another story)
Phillip, you are making my very small brain work beyond its capacity. I?m enjoying the conversation and the ideas you are presenting.
Cheers
Les
Hi Cao,
I have considered using a thin veneer of timber for the frames but I don?t have access to that type of material. I am sure that if I put in the time researching a bit harder, I could turn up something. If you can get hold of untreated veneer, it would be ideal for these rounds. I did some research on cardboard about a month ago. Even looked into the possibility of utilising cardboard cylinders. The big issue I have is that I don?t know what chemicals, preservatives and adhesives are used in the manufacture of that material so I dismissed the idea purely from that perspective. It?s great to see some good ideas coming in.
Cheers
Les
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I?m enjoying the conversation and the ideas you are presenting.
I am enjoying the conversation as well. Keep proceeding forward. Thanks for the informative video, good stuff!....
Phillip
It really is a pleasure to have this type of conversation. People with passion, interest and experience help to make this a real learning adventure. Hopefully there are others who can suggest, question, offer alternatives and even give a ?thumbs down? to some aspects of the discussion.
Your suggestion about bee access areas in the frame got me thinking. I still wanted the frame to come apart easily so this is what I came up with
[attachment=0][/attachment]
The holes are 9.5mm. My thinking was to make the holes big enough for bees to get through but at the same time, if it doesn?t work, I can plug those holes with a piece of dowel. (Sorry to talk in metric.) Here is a pic taken on the inside of the frame.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
I think it is pretty obvious how it was done. This allows the bees to crawl through a wooden hole. (Which they may prefer) If the hole needs to be larger, (eg 12mm) I can drill it out. Extra holes can be added if required. What do you think?
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What do you think?
I am only guessing. Here is what I think by guessing.
I have noticed in a natural, foundation-less comb setting, the bees will generally leave a small crawl space, usually at the bottom or sides, (a go thru access area) your access holes picture has a ridge sticking up higher than the foundation board.This may be a deterrent. I am concerned the bees will be reluctant to crawl over and back down through the holes you have provided. I am thinking more of a clear tube which will be in contact or next to the bottle round housings cut flush with the solid frame board, being as close to natural as possible. What I am suggesting may not work either. But with bees we really will not know until we try.
Looking at natural foundation-less comb, We realize the bees will access the bottoms or the sides as well as sometimes other areas of the comb. However, this is a totally different situation from what is natural for bees. Being there is a SOLID foundation board in-between each of these rounds, I really doubt the bees will leave the round to seek access to the other side. I think they will seek to access in the comb area itself. That is why the theory of the clear access tube directly for each round housing. Even this is not guaranteed to work. Therefore I am not suggesting you build a lot of what I am describing until you experiment and see for yourself what your bees will do.
I may very well be wrong. The little rascals may happily use what you have posted here. Ot they may not use anything we offer. If what you have pictured works, then so much the better!
Thanks,
Phillip
Now I get what you are saying. If your theory is correct, it shouldn?t be hard to do. Will try this first and see how the bees react. They may just seal it up or ignore it completely. The next frame that I will remove from the hive will be foundationless. I want to see how many access holes are left in the comb. On these rounds, I put a starter strip all the way around the inside to act as a guide for the bees. (Had similar thoughts to you about access holes) These rounds have been on the hive for three weeks. I will check them in a few days when I get back from a trip away. Will post a pic. to show how the bees reacted. Looking forward to seeing what the bees have done as this is another technique that I?ve developed.
Cheers
Les
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If your theory is correct, it shouldn?t be hard to do.
My little theory might not be correct. Considering the bees would still have to climb out of the provided foundation area, 'work area' to use the clear tube for access to the other side. This they may not do, leaving you where you are now which is still a good place. Keep up the good work and keep us updated.
Phillip
Quote from: NigelP on December 17, 2021, 07:51:43 AM
I sell a lot of comb honey but have given up on trying to get the rounds. My bees simply don't fill them well. I use thin foundation (or strips) and either sell whole combs packeted with a stand or use a cut comb honey cutter (or a knife) to cut sections out to fill the cut comb containers. I'd love to sell nothing else as it's much easier to do than extracting honey which is a real chore.
(https://i.ibb.co/GdCXvR3/comb.jpg)
Good looking combs! Nigel is there a special way you store these?
Hi Ben stored frozen. It's heather honey that is slow to granulate, but granulate it will, Keeping it frozen prevents this. Currently 2 freezers full of it...A years supply.
Quote from: NigelP on December 20, 2021, 08:09:55 AM
Hi Ben stored frozen. It's heather honey that is slow to granulate, but granulate it will, Keeping it frozen prevents this. Currently 2 freezers full of it...A years supply.
Your comb honey is nice, even to look upon. I was suspecting freezing is the way to go with comb honey. Thank you for sharing your experience and photo.. Good stuff!
Phillip
Hi Folks,
Just thought I?d add a little bit more information in relation to the development of the rounds. As I said in an earlier post, the clear rounds are visually appealing but they are still plastic. I wanted to go back to where I initially started on this journey and see if I could develop the timber rounds to a point where they were easy to make and looked the part. After a bit of experimenting, I started to get acceptable results. This is how I made them.
https://youtu.be/m1J7-Rtjmso
A good sharp planner and a board of appropriate thickness will get you all the ribbons of pine or oak you want. You could get fancy and use different woods as marketing tools. I mean who wouldn?t buy Cherrywood Honey Disks?
The key here is a sharp hand planner. They should self wrap around the foundation since they will have hard curls in them.
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Bass wood is what all the turn of the century guys used.
Cheers
gww
I like the idea of the different timber?s being used. I only use untreated pine as I can get off cuts for free. Did a bad thing though a COVID lockdown. Sold all my planes and a whole heap of other gear as I thought I would never use them enough to warrant keeping them. Pretty twisted thinking on my part. Smoothing, Jack and Tri planes all gone as I very rarely used them. That?s pretty sad for a former Woodwork teacher.
Quote from: Lesgold on December 20, 2021, 11:47:29 PM
I like the idea of the different timber?s being used. I only use untreated pine as I can get off cuts for free. Did a bad thing though a COVID lockdown. Sold all my planes and a whole heap of other gear as I thought I would never use them enough to warrant keeping them. Pretty twisted thinking on my part. Smoothing, Jack and Tri planes all gone as I very rarely used them. That?s pretty sad for a former Woodwork teacher.
That?s too bad, cause you could peel ribbons off in bulk.
I don?t like eating splinters anyway. It?s kinda like fish bones. :)
What about a strip of cloth soaked in melted beeswax, wrapped around your plastic forms, once cooled peel the plastic out and insert the cloth in the frame. You could have any print from 50s checkerboard tablecloth, bee prints, to Stroheim Country Fable II. I bought some Christmas wrapping paper that looks like birch bark that could be dipped in wax and waxed to the inside of the plastic ring then with a heat gun or blow dryer separated easily by peeling the plastic mold off once filled.
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That?s an interesting interesting idea. I like the thinking behind it. All natural products as well. How do you think the wax would hold up under hive temperatures? Would it stay firm? Definitely worth looking at.
Quote from: Lesgold on December 21, 2021, 12:28:11 AM
That?s an interesting interesting idea. I like the thinking behind it. All natural products as well. How do you think the wax would hold up under hive temperatures? Would it stay firm? Definitely worth looking at.
It?s what they use for their entire house. And even if it does soften, I would imagine that fabric would still stick to the plastic if you left it on the outside of the ring. If it got that hot you would have honey rolling out of the entrance.
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Les is there a particular reason you are not sticking with the drink bottle plastic, (food grade), rounds?
Hi Phillip,
I will be sticking to the PET as it is easy, cost effective and looks amazing. In saying that, I want to be up to speed on the timber rounds as well as I believe this is the way we should be heading long term. My intention is to change to a PET jar (750ml) as I can buy these new. From memory, these cost me about 40c each as they are a common size used here in Ozzie land. Each jar would make 3 rounds. They are slightly smaller than what I?m making now but that does not concern me as I think there is a market for them. If I could buy the soft drink bottles new and in small quantities, I would stick with them. You will probably have more luck in your part of the world. Getting back to the timber rounds - A lot of my customers are health conscious and very anti plastic. I can understand where they are coming from. I sell honey in plastic pails, plastic jars and glass jars. There is a large proportion of those people who prefer glass. (As do I) Glass is however, more expensive to buy, difficult to post and quite heavy. Anyway, enough of my rant. The timber rounds will take more time to produce but they will have that rustic and natural appeal that many people are chasing. It was interesting selling honey at my local markets on Sunday. I had some rounds and rectangular timber combs for sale. The rectangular timber frames of comb attracted the most attention by far.
The big issue I had with the first batch of timber rounds was the shape. They were close to being round but I wasn?t completely happy with the way they turned out. If I were to assess them, I would give them 6 1/2 out of 10. Cramping them at the join wasn?t good enough. I wanted the veneer to be pushed against the former all the way round. The solution was so simple it made me smile. I reckon I got lucky with this technique. I think you will like it.
https://youtu.be/H_85zNOkMrY
Cheers
Les
Looks like you got your solution. Nice job.
That piece of PVC gave me another idea though. If you had some pipe that was a half inch larger, and cut a gap in the side, if it would make enough spring tension when compressed to press the wood all the way around.
I don?t know if that makes sense. A notch cut out would make a round O look like a C, that when squeezed down would close the gap and make an O that wanted to return to a C. You could maybe make even more jigs by using a full circle of PVC for the outside form, and the C piece for the inside form.
Looking good though.
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Another thing is you may be able to cut the wood for an exact fit and not need the overlap and glue.
Once the ends are butted up for an exact fit and pressed into the frame, would the drawn comb keep the band shut?
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>A lot of my customers are health conscious and very anti plastic.
That seems to be the trend with many. Even with wood rounds, the comb honey will continue be placed and sold or gifted in plastic containers anyway, if our comb honey is placed in similar containers featured in the picture of NigelP? The comb will still be in plastic. I am not attempting to discourage your efforts for a different round as I am sure you are enjoying the journey of the process of experimentation and I am enjoying the pleasure of your efforts as well. Perhaps is also has something to do with you being, an you described yourself, an old wood man at heart.
:grin:
Quote from: Ben Framed on December 21, 2021, 12:48:53 PM
>A lot of my customers are health conscious and very anti plastic.
That seems to be the trend with many. Even with wood rounds, the comb honey will continue be placed and sold or gifted in plastic containers anyway, if our comb honey is placed in similar containers featured in the picture of NigelP? The comb will still be in plastic. I am not attempting to discourage your efforts for a different round as I am sure you are enjoying the journey of the process of experimentation and I am enjoying the pleasure of your efforts as well. Perhaps is also has something to do with you being, an you described yourself, an old wood man at heart.
:grin:
Sorry that I'm kind of butting in and out here. I can't seem to keep caught up with this thread. But I think there is a big difference in consumers' minds between something that was produced in plastic as opposed to something that is simply sold in plastic. I'm not saying that's a valid concern, because there is a whole host of variables that goes into what plastics are safe for what uses, but I think that difference has an effect on the purchasing public.
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But I think there is a big difference in consumers' minds between something that was produced in plastic as opposed to something that is simply sold in plastic.
With the reasoning of todays world, I would not be surprised. :shocked: :wink:
Whether Plastic or wood these look good Les?
I?m pleased to see that the conversation and the debate continues. Is there a right answer to this question in relation to the use of plastics? Personally I don?t think there is a perfect solution at this stage. What we are doing right now is a good start. At least are having the conversation and I?m sure that there will be other ideas people out there that will have ?light bulb? moments and come up with brilliant design concepts to help us change and improve the way that we do things. You nailed it Phillip with the packaging comment. When governments and the general public demand it, there will be changes in this area. While I was away, I had some down time and started doing some research. I have emailed two packaging companies in Sydney and asked if they could send me some samples of containers made from what is called PLA (it is a plant based, compostable plastic) The items that I looked at were clear, rigid containers. There may be some potential in this area. I?ll raise it in the comb honey packaging thread when the samples come through.
.30WCF, some good ideas there. When the steamed timber is removed from the former, it springs out in a manner that you were describing. When I first began experimenting with timber strips, I tried butting the ends together and I couldn?t get the shape quite right. With the new method of cramping the steamed strips, I should revisit this and see how it performs. Thanks for that idea.
Quote
I have emailed two packaging companies in Sydney and asked if they could send me some samples of containers made from what is called PLA (it is a plant based, compostable plastic)
Awesome! Please keep us updated on this.
If possible taking it one step further;
A plant base plastic round would be the 'icing on the cake'.
Phillip
Pretty exciting stuff. I?ll see if I can get a screen shot of the takeaway container they put up on their website. Getting the round made from this material (and packaging to suit) would me amazing.
Sorry to keep chopping and changing thoughts throughout the thread, I just wanted to show you how this idea evolved. This is basically as far as I?ve come in the development of this round comb. It?s now time for testing and refinement. I sure some of you will continue to redesign and improve on what I started. Hopefully your ideas will be posted. All of the thoughts and comments mentioned will looked at closely and many of them will be tested over time. I was going to take off some honey today but it looks like there may be rain coming. If there is a break in the weather, I will jump into a hive that contains the first two timber rounds frames and take a couple of photos. One of the frames contains rounds with thin foundation and the other utilises starter strips. Hopefully they will be drawn out and contain some honey. I?ll pop down to the shed and grab one of the rounds with a starter strip installed and photograph it. I?ve come up with a new way of adding a starter strip to any type of frame. This method was one of my light bulb moments. I?ll be back shortly.
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I can't seem to keep caught up with this thread.
Member, I highly recommend you go back and catch up. It's well worth the effort.
Phillip
Quote
Sorry to keep chopping and changing thoughts throughout the thread, I just wanted to show you how this idea evolved. This is basically as far as I've come in the development of this round comb.
Les your enthusiasm is contagious. This is a well laid out topic with a wealth of information. I appreciate you filling in the blanks. Please do not hesitate in sharing.. Keep up the good work!
Phillip,
In relation to our discussion on bee access holes and possible solutions, there may need for us to work on that idea and develop it. I did however, have something else on the go that may change our thinking. As I said before, the first rounds that I made utilised starter strips and you quickly picked up the bee access issue when you saw photographs. When I use thin foundation to fill the cavity, the problem disappears. My next thought was to have a circular starter strip running all the way around the inside of the round. This would be a tremendous guide for the bees and also give them wax to play with to help fill the gap. In other words, I wanted a washer of wax to fit into the round. I mentally designed different sized cutters to perform the task but eventually dismissed the idea due to the extra time it would take. I then looked at what resources I already had to see if there was some way I could utilise the plugs that I had made for positioning the foundation in the round. It then just hit me. It was so simple. I grabbed some cling wrap from the kitchen and placed a piece over the plug. I then pressed a ring over the plug and then painted molten cappings wax around the intersection of the plug and the round. When the wax cooled, the cling wrap was pulled away from the round. It was so quick. The results blew me away. Here is a pic of one that?s ready to go into a frame:
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Pretty cool hey. I immediately tried this technique on a few styles of frame and placed them into hives. The bees were like kids in a lolly shop. They loved the wax an started drawing it overnight. I?m hoping for good results when I check today. This technique could be used on any style of frame. Even the bars a top bar hive could be set up using this technique. I hope this technique gives you some ideas.
Cheers
Les
I just placed some rounds into the modified frame ready for placement on a hive.
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> When I use thin foundation to fill the cavity, the problem disappears.
Very encouraging!
>My next thought was to have a circular starter strip running all the way around the inside of the round. This would be a tremendous guide for the bees and also give them wax to play with to help fill the gap. In other words, I wanted a washer of wax to fit into the round. I mentally designed different sized cutters to perform the task but eventually dismissed the idea due to the extra time it would take.
Sound reasoning!
>Pretty cool hey.
Very
>The bees were like kids in a lolly shop. They loved the wax an started drawing it overnight. I'm hoping for good results when I check today.
I am hoping you get the results you desire Les... All ideas above sound good to me... The inner wax ring starter you have described and pictured, is a good idea I am thinking. You should know soon..
Just got back from the hive. Pulled out three frames from the super. The first frame is one of the early timber rounds. It was filled with foundation. An interesting point to note is area close to the round was not filled completely. There is a slight yellow appearance to the cappings wax. This is caused by a weed that the bees work during the hotter months.
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The second photo is the foundationless rounds put on the hive in the 29th of November. There was some evidence of bee access holes but the couple of holes were quite small. There were some areas (especially lower on the rounds) that were not completely filled. This could be a trait of the timber rounds. It would be interesting to see if they would get filled if the frames remained on the hives for a week or two longer.
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The rounds were located either side a foundationless frame that the bees filled last month.
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This was also harvested.
Les in comparison to everything you have posted of your experimentation process so far, I like the picture of the rounds which feature thin foundation in your reply #14 and 15, which was a result of your reply #13. The picture of the final results show the natural beauty of the comb displaying the clear vision of the side view/edges of the combs themselves. The transparency of the plastic is the key to the added beauty in my opinion. Adding complement to the top and bottom of the comb, giving a 3D appearance with nothing to hide, and everything to please.
Do you anticipate the bees finishing the wood rounds you have just posted in your last reply #62? I would really like to see these in a similar picture as that you posted in reply #13, for curiosities sake.
Thanks,
Phillip
I attempted featuring all three pictures here but I failed. Sorry.
Reply #15
Quote from: Ben Framed on December 21, 2021, 10:33:32 PM
Les in comparison to everything you have posted of your experimentation process so far, I like the picture of the rounds which feature thin foundation in your reply #14 and 15, which was a result of your reply #13. The picture of the final results show the natural beauty of the comb displaying the clear vision of the side view/edges of the combs themselves. The transparency of the plastic is the key to the added beauty in my opinion. Adding complement to the top and bottom of the comb, giving a 3D appearance with nothing to hide, and everything to please.
Do you anticipate the bees finishing the wood rounds you have just posted in your last reply #62? I would really like to see these in a similar picture as that you posted in reply #13, for curiosities sake.
Thanks,
Phillip
Seeing them out of the frame would give a good comparison.
I?m picturing attempting something similar for some hives in the spring. I might bore out the centers of some of the limbs I?m cutting for fire wood and build frames around them. Just a few. It would be cool to give someone a log round with the bark still on it filled with comb. Kinda like a small version of the natural cutting boards, but hollowed out and filled with honey comb. Might just wrap it it in waxed cloth and hand it to them that way.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Les reply #15
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Les my apologies, my copies did not come out as good as your originals. If you would like to add yours go right ahead, If so I will delete these copies..
Phillip
Hi Phillip,
They are back on the hive. Will give them a bit more time to see if there is any change. I do agree that the clear rounds with the view into the cell structure is a really magnificent sight. The foundationless frame will be cut into chunk honey this afternoon. Thee work never stops. At this time of year chunk honey is a bit of a winner. It is still a good value adding way of presenting comb and honey. I will post some pictures of the timber rounds in a couple of weeks for comparative purposes.
If I were to evaluate the process so far, there are a few areas I would like to comment on.
1) The frame design works extremely will. Rounds come out easily when the are full of honey. The idea of bee access holes needs further exploration.
2) The clear rounds are easy to construct and look the part when taken out of the frame. They may end up as a better proposition than the timber sections at this stage. Sourcing new material for the rounds will be essential if they are to be made commercially. PLA bio plastic may be a good option in this area.
3) Thin foundation gives a more consistent result compared to starter strips. The homemade foundation did not impact on the taste or texture of the comb. (There were no negative comments made by people sampling the comb in this regard) Use of foundation does require a bit more work.
4) correct bee space is essential if the comb is to be well formed.
5) A strong hive and a good honey flow are essential if good results are to be achieved. Bad weather and rainy periods cause a break in the honey flow and can result in comb shapes changing slightly.
6) Swarming during the flow also causes shape changes in the comb. (Both appear to be caused by partially consumed honey being eaten by the bees and then cells being prematurely capped)
I will keep experimenting and trying to improve results. I am sure that there are other comments that people would like to make to improve the process. Please contribute as we can all learn from this.
I would like to present another idea that I have been working on. I have also been playing with square sections. This is a different design altogether. I haven?t looked at the frames that I placed in a hive for about 3 weeks now. I might go and drag one out so that you can have a look at it. The square frame comb section idea is not new, I?ve just adapted it to suit my needs. I?ll see if I can get one to show you. Will get back to you in a couple of hours.
Cheers
Les
"Lesgold"
I will keep experimenting and trying to improve results. I am sure that there are other comments that people would like to make to improve the process. Please contribute as we can all learn from this.
I would like to present another idea that I have been working on. I have also been playing with square sections. This is a different design altogether. I haven?t looked at the frames that I placed in a hive for about 3 weeks now. I might go and drag one out so that you can have a look at it. The square frame comb section idea is not new, I?ve just adapted it to suit my needs. I?ll see if I can get one to show you. Will get back to you in a couple of hours.
Cheers
Les
Thanks Les, I am glad you chose to join and contribute here at Beemaster.
Phillip
Thanks Phillip.
I am happy that a number of members have contributed and put forward a range of excellent ideas.
.30WCF, you make a good point about the comparison. My wife did take a couple of photos before I put the frames back on the hive. I decided not to post them as the sections were not completely filled out. I?ll grab one and pop it up shortly.
Here it is. It doesn?t look too bad but would it would be better if each cell was filled and capped.
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I?ll put up a link for the starter strip construction. Sometimes a bit of video explains more than what my rambling would ever do.
https://youtu.be/jbcJFBqHrME
Hi Folks,
Time to start looking at the square comb sections. Again, it was something that I experimented with a few years ago. I attempted to use timber strips that folded to a square. Saw cuts were made part way through the timber to act as fold or hinge points with the final joint being a butt joint that was glued. A saw cut was placed on one face to hold foundation and then the squares were fitted to a standard deep frame with packing blocks, wedges etc to hold everything in place. I struggled to get the accuracy needed and found that every deep frame that I used was slightly different in size. I made a block of 8 squares and put it onto a hive but gave up after that as it was going to be a lot of work. After that disaster, I decided to make cut comb instead and bought a collection of packaging containers. I made some cut comb for a while and when the flow finished, I put the remaining empty containers into storage. When I undertook a workshop cleanup during lockdown, these containers turned up. It was early spring and the bees were actively bringing in nectar. I thought it was time to put these containers to good use. I had already started making rounds at that point so I thought it could be a good comparison and test if I were to make square comb sections at the same time. The first task was to come up with a simple frame that I could make quickly and accurately. I thought about all types of fancy joint work and joining techniques but they would take time. A simple butt joint was the answer. A staple placed in each corner was more than strong enough to hold the square together. A simple jig to hold sides together while stapling was constructed and I was up and away. Timber prep was so easy. Long timber strips were cut on the saw bench and then the drop saw was used to cut material to length. Here?s what I ended up with. You will notice that I have already put starter strips on each comb section.
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8 frames then butt together to fit inside a deep frame.
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Each frame is exactly the same size and is square due to the jig that I made. Just for reference, the squares are 105x105mm. Each frame is 30mm deep and the thickness of the pine is 4mm. Full sheets of thin foundation or starter strips can be installed using the same process as the rounds. That was the easy bit done. The next part of the design process was the frame to hold the squares. I?ve just pulled one off a hive so I?ll get a couple photos and show you how it works. Will be back a bit later on.
Cheers
Les
The 8 squares were just placed into the frame. Time taken to perform that task was about 30 seconds. Here it is ready to go back on the hive.
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The overall dimensions match that of a standard deep frame. Just for a bit of eye candy, this is what the frame looked like when I took it out of the hive.
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And one of the honey sections when removed from the frame.
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The secret to this frame is actually hidden from view.
The top and bottom bars of the frame are actually linked by a piece of threaded rod hidden inside of the end bars. Tee nuts on the bottom and wing nuts on the top allow pressure to be applied the the square sections.
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If you look carefully, you may just see the ends of the tee nut and the wing nut. The end bars have a slot cut in them to cover the threaded rod. High density foam is attached to the end of the bars to allow help hold them in position. The end bars can also be pushed to apply some pressure to the sections as you tighten the frame up. The end bars were needed so that correct bee space could be maintained and the threaded rod covered.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
This system is very simple. The frame works well and does away with the need for any custom packing blocks etc. The squares take very little time to assemble and the results are obvious. Each square sits nicely in a cut comb box ready for labelling.
Cheers
Les
Sorry to back track but I just pulled another one of the frames with the plastic rounds in it. They filled this one right to the edge (as they did on the last test frame) This frame came from a different location to the earlier one shown. The results appear consistent at this stage. The honey flow will finish within a week so things will slow down considerably. Hope you all have a merry Christmas. Will catch you in a few days with another idea that I have developed.
Cheers
Les
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Hi Folks,
Time to show you the last style of comb honey that I?m experimenting with. This type of frame is actually a mini frame that sits in a specially made super. There are a lot of advantages to this type of comb honey production but I?ll talk about that later. We have all seen frames from mini nuc?s and that was the starting point for this design. I took a standard frame and thought to myself ? how can I use some of the critical measurements used here and come up with a small, uncomplicated frame requiring very little time and effort to construct?? The solution was surprisingly simple. First of all the complex joint work had to go. As these frames were throw away items that only had to be manipulated and moved a couple of times, strength was not a major consideration. Butt joints utilising a staple on each corner was the chosen option. Top and bottom bars were constructed from 25x6mm material and end bars were made from 35x8mm pine.
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A simple jig was constructed to hold all components in place.
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And then each corner was stapled with a 16mm staple.
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The top bar has a 4mm overhang that allows it to sit into position within the box. Thin foundation or starter strips are then added before it is placed into the super. Each super holds 30 frames. I don?t have a spare super to show you. The two that I have made are on hives at the moment. I will grab some photos tomorrow or the day after when the cold, rainy weather disappears.
Cheers
Les
Good morning Folks,
Just had a look in one of my mini frame supers to see how the comb is developing. The flow has pretty well stopped and I will have to wait 2 or 3 weeks before the next one starts. That?s not an issue as I?m hoping that a lot of the comb has been formed in the frames ready for the next lot of nectar to come in. Here?s what the half box looks like.
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It?s 120mm deep and is made to the usual 10 frame dimensions. Where it changes is on the inside.
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As you can see, there are two 19mm dividers and small rebates to act as frame supports. The small rebate on the ends are 8x8mm. The dividers are dropped 8 mm from the top edge of the box.
[attachment=2][/attachment]
From this photo you can see how the frame sits on the support rebate. You may also notice that there is no bee space allowance on the ends of the frames. All bee movement occurs between the frames. Any propolis buildup is basically restricted to the bottom corners of each frame (and a little bit on the top bar/ frame support) I allow about 1mm gap for the frame. This allows for frame or box expansion/ contraction and also for any construction error. This system has worked perfectly so far. You will also notice the two stapling methods I used for frame assembly. Originally, 2 x narrow crown staples were used on each corner but after some testing, I found that a 16mm wide crown staple was more than strong enough to do the job.
As I?m always testing and looking for improvement, I decided to use 50% thin foundation and 50% starter strips on this box to see how they compared. The box was placed on the hive about two weeks ago (just as the flow was slowing) The foundation was drawn faster than the starter strips but I?m assuming that when a flow is in full swing, there wouldn?t be a lot of difference between the two methods. Most of the starter strips are at least 90% drawn with only a few that are at about 25%. As you would expect, all starter strip comb is large cell which implies it is the most efficient way for the bees to store honey. Here is a pic of one of the thin foundation frames
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And one of the better foundationless frames. Notice that the bees are already starting to cap this frame.
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The bee access points will be filled in as more nectar comes in. I have yet to pull anything but full, complete frames using this approach. What I do like about this method is the ability to move frames around so that the bees draw and fill them evenly. This allows for good comb shape which is critical for the appearance of the final product. I will pull some capped frames from another hive in the next couple of days to show you what the end product looks like.
Cheers for now
Les
Thanks Les!
Great job mate.
Thanks Bee North. I?m really pleased with how this method is working out. The bees love working the mini frames and take to them quickly. This is what they look like when I pull them from the hive.
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The comb consistently comes out looking like the one above. The beauty of this system is that you can take small quantities of comb as they are capped and replace them with empties. I did find however, that you must take 10 at a time and manipulate the frames so that all new empties are in one block. If you don?t, it upsets bee space and distorted combs will result. This is how I have started packaging them.
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They are lightly vacuum sealed so that most of the air is removed. (If you go too far, the comb gets crushed) They are easily frozen this way. Labelling can be added later. When sold from home or at the markets, this method is readily accepted by customers. If the product were to be sold in a retail environment, something more substantial may be required.
Cheers
Les
Les they look great.
Thanks again...now I'm going to have to have a go.
Please do. Let us know how it goes if you do.
Cheers
Les
Lesgold just wanted to say thanks for the idea and more importantly for taking the time to documenting it. I always am interested in the construction aspect of a project and you supply plenty of good instruction. Also, this time of year it is nice to see pictures of bees being bees. Thanks again and keep the ideas coming.
It?s a pleasure cao. If it can inspire some people to play and develop some of these ideas and take them to another level, I?d be very happy. I?ve always been a visual person so I hope I haven?t bored people with the pics. and videos. It?s just the way that I learn best.
When I visit a hive containing the mini frames, I normally take a box of empties so that I can harvest and replace frames as required.
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This system works really well as newly collected frames of honey are safely stored for the trip home.
Hi Folks,
Well that?s about all I have to offer on this series of experiments. As I make minor changes or improve aspects of these designs, I?ll post what my changes or findings are. It?s now up to anyone who is interested to improve and develop some of these designs and take them to the next level. Hopefully any improvements will be documented for others to take advantage of. Public interest through sales has been increasing at a good rate. The most popular shapes are the mini rectangular frames followed by the squares. The rounds, although still popular, did not sell as well as the other two designs. This may change over time. I have not taken any of the wooden rounds off the hives at this stage. It will be interesting to see how the market accepts them. I gave a sample of the rectangular comb to a chef at a restaurant and asked him to give me some feedback as to its potential in a commercial kitchen setting. Will let you know what he comes up with. At the time his only comment was in relation to the frames being marked with a brand. I thought that was a good idea so I ordered a custom brand for the frames. At a cost of $50, it was a cheap investment.
Cheers for now,
Les
Hi Folks,
Just a bit of an update on the rounds comb sections. Pulled a couple of frames from a hive yesterday. (Including the frame from post #33) The rounds on top we?re foundationless with starter strips and we?re place on the hive 19 days ago. The girls were keen little workers and got the job done quickly.
Cheers
Les
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Thanks Les.... Keep the good ideas coming!!
Phillip
Thanks Phillip. The flow that I thought was going to come soon is not going to happen. With all the rain that we have had, most of the buds that were due to open actually dropped off due to a flush of new growth. A walk in the bush this morning with binoculars confirmed this. I will most likely have to wait for a few months for a winter flow before new comb sections will be made. There is still the odd tree flowering here which may be enough to finish off some of the current ones off. I will finally have a bit of breathing space to rethink and adjust some of the designs if need be. The comb in bottles idea that you pointed out to me will be given a run in the next flow. I?m a bit of a tragic for trying out different or unusual ideas. I may even document it here as it still fits into this category.
Cheers
Les
QuoteThe comb in bottles idea that you pointed out to me will be given a run in the next flow. I?m a bit of a tragic for trying out different or unusual ideas. I may even document it here as it still fits into this category.
That would be grand! I hope this works out for you. Actually I first heard of the comb honey in a jar from JurassicApiary and followed up by microage97. Both members here. Please keep us updated on this, As it?s winter here, my season will not begin until next Spring. I am very interested in the jar method as well and if I remember correctly, Jim134 is also interested..
Thanks,
Phillip
Will do. It looks like a fool proof method to me as long as a few of the basic principles are followed. I?m already thinking about subtle changes to the way it could be done from a construction and setup perspective (to suit my workshop equipment) . The good aspect of this system is that it would only take about an hour to set up. It is so simple. The funny part about it is that we could be both experimenting with this system at the same time of year. (I should have a flow that should be in full swing during May, June and July) It will be good to compare notes. Extracting honey is not the most exciting task in the world. Having a bit of fun playing with new ideas tends to keep the motivation going.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 21, 2022, 03:02:52 AM
Will do. It looks like a fool proof method to me as long as a few of the basic principles are followed. I?m already thinking about subtle changes to the way it could be done from a construction and setup perspective (to suit my workshop equipment) . The good aspect of this system is that it would only take about an hour to set up. It is so simple. The funny part about it is that we could be both experimenting with this system at the same time of year. (I should have a flow that should be in full swing during May, June and July) It will be good to compare notes. Extracting honey is not the most exciting task in the world. Having a bit of fun playing with new ideas tends to keep the motivation going.
Yes I agree. Sounds good and I?m looking forward to it!!
Phillip
Time to get started on the comb in jars project. What I will do is post each small stage as the project progresses so that people who are interested can comment, make suggestions for improvement or be critical when I make dumb mistakes (I?m pretty good at that. Should actually write a book on it.)
The first step for me is to select the test hive. I have a strong hive in mind that has a Ross Rounds super on it that is ready to be removed so that problem is sorted. The bees are still bringing in nectar and are building comb so I would expect that they take to the bottles. The only job to get sorted is the construction of the jar support board.
I had a bit of a think about the jars that I could use. Mason jars with a wide opening would have been a good choice but as this is an experiment, I decided not to spend money when I could use what I already had in stock. I decided to go with a 375ml jar. This is one of the most common jars used for food and is readily available. It has a wide opening relative to the width of the container, it?s cheap to buy and is the most popular jar size for my chunk honey.
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For the experiment, I will use 12 jars. I could fit more but I will keep it simple to start with. I will buy a small piece of plywood today and cut it to size. I will come back when I have the material prepared.
Just picked up the plywood from the hardware store. Cut out the base and then used an off cut to test an idea I had. I used two hole saws to cut a stepped recess hole in the plywood.
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The inner diameter hole matches the internal diameter of the jar and the larger stepped hole is the same as the outside diameter of the jar. This means that the threaded section is not exposed to the bees at all.
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And from the inside
[attachment=2][/attachment]
Hopefully this will keep propolis and wax off the thread and also prevent the jars from sliding out of position. The test piece worked out well so I will now attempt this on the base board.
A 15 minute job and the base board is drilled out.
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Sat the board on an upturned lid to see how much it distorted under load. With the jars attached, it remained flat.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Added some extra weight (about 7kg) and still very little distortion.
[attachment=2][/attachment]
I?m now confident that the board should remain quite flat when the jars are filled with comb and honey. The final task is to add spacers underneath to provide bee space. If the board is to sit directly on top of another super, I would make the spacers about 5mm. If the board were to sit on top of a queen excluder, I would tend to look at about 9mm. I?ll split the difference and go for 8mm. That will be tomorrows job.
Are you going.. To try to bait these bees to go into the jars ? I have never tried this... The people I know who have... Use comb Foundation... They did cut a piece of foundation a little bit bigger than the opening of the jar.. They would warm the foundation up a little bit.. And fold at the least they could... To place it in the jar... As bait for the honey bees.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Hi Jim,
Yes I will bait the jars in a couple of ways. I was thinking of trying some beeswax in the bottom of some, some foundation starter strips in others and then a few sheets of foundation filling a lot of the cavity in others. I?m interested to see how the bees react to each.
The risers were glued and stapled in place last night. Here?s the end product.
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I will play with adding foundation or starter strips after breakfast. May even get it onto a hive today.
Decided to put foundation into 4 of the jars. Cut strips to just under the inside diameter of the jars and trimmed the corners.
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Bent the foundation to fit it into place and then used my fingers to straighten it.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
The foundation sat quite well in the jar but I decided to attach it to the base of the jar with a bit of heat.
[attachment=2][/attachment]
Allowed the jar to cool and then tweaked the position of the foundation.
Les I hope this works out, looks good to me.......
Hope so Phillip. As it is another experiment, I decided to try starter strips as well. Grabbed one of my wife?s cloths pegs and modified it to hold foundation strips in place.
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Stater strips were attached using the same method as above.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Finally, 4 of the jars had a few small trimmings of foundation dropped into the bottom and they were then heated from below.
[attachment=2][/attachment]
I rolled the molten wax so that a small quantity ended up moving over the centre of the jar. You may be able to see the smear of wax. Everything is now ready to pop onto a hive. Will give feedback and take a few pics from time to time to show what system the bees like the most.
HA! I like it!!
You have made me want to fire up the table saw and make some of the little frames for comb honey.
Good job for sure and thanks for posting this.
I?m sure that you will have a lot of fun producing some of your own comb honey. Good luck and I hope the bees do the right thing for you.
I?ll pop down to the hive after breakfast and have a look at the jars and see if the bees have climbed in for a look. Will post an update later. It?s going to be so easy to check what?s happening without an invasive inspection.
The bees really took to the strips of foundation. They had drawn some comb overnight and were festooning at the bottom of the foundation.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
The starter strips and the jars with melted wax were quite in comparison. Condensation was showing up in the ones that were not holding bees.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
I am sure that if a strong flow was underway, the outcome could be quite different. I will have another look in a couple of days.
Cheers
Les
They are wasting no time Les! Looking good!!
Just a reminder from the pictures that jurassic had posted. Looks like you are on the right track...
[attachment=0][/attachment]
And the hex jars do look the part. Presentation is important when it comes to this type of product. I think that would be the next step once the process is sorted. Jurassic looks like he has nailed it.
I'm very interested to see how this turns out. A jar board is something I've always wanted to try. I don't have any foundation, since I'm foundationless, and I would prefer not to buy some just for this. I wonder if I used a little piece of comb as a starter strip if they'd take to it.
Now that?s good thinking. I like that. A small piece of newly drawn comb attached at the bottom of the jar would be excellent. I?m not as keen on the foundation either. If the bees could utilise the little bit of wax that was melted onto the bottom of the jar or a simple starter strip, that would mean a jar full of pure, bee made goodies. Unfortunately the bees are showing the preference for the foundation at this stage. Hopefully a few more days will give a better indication of what is to come. If the bees do not start building comb on the melted wax, I may try your idea on those jars. Thanks again for your input.
Cheers
Les
I wonder if you switched places with the jars to see if they would go into the one with just a starter strip. This might tell us if they have a memory to go where they were last working or if they go to where the work is already in progress.
Just a thought.
QuoteThe15thMenmber
I don't have any foundation, since I'm foundationless,
Reagan if you have some left over wax from your crush and strain you could make some flat sheets as those which have been discussed. If cut the proper size as those Les cut using his foundation, would probably work just fine along with giving you the satisfaction of using your very own wax. ??
Phillip
Quote Lesgold
And the hex jars do look the part. Presentation is important when it comes to this type of product. I think that would be the next step once the process is sorted. Jurassic looks like he has nailed it.
Les I had considered the hex jars also, but after seeing yours, I am thinking the rounds will work just fine! Especially when you top them off with that golden beautiful honey with the comb showing in the center! They should be 'very' appealing.. The hex was convenient as adding as many jars as possible to each top, (I am thinking was the idea?). I will try and find the old pictures if I can and put it here. I feel certain that Jurassic would not mind.
Phillip
It looks like as many as 42 jars could be added this way?
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Quote from: G3farms on January 25, 2022, 09:03:20 PM
I wonder if you switched places with the jars to see if they would go into the one with just a starter strip. This might tell us if they have a memory to go where they were last working or if they go to where the work is already in progress.
Just a thought.
Good for the curiosity question..... I wonder too....
Love the pic of the hex jars!
Quote from: G3farms on January 25, 2022, 09:59:48 PM
Love the pic of the hex jars!
I do too G3farms. I am adding another one that way we can count the cells in the foundation and get an idea of how tall these jars are in comparison. That should give us a pretty good idea of what size these jars are.
I think the round jars that Les is experimenting with will be just fine.. But if we are striving for efficiency in utilizing space and resources, the hex jars will be a good choice as well. Especially if the hex jars are competitively priced.
Phillip
[attachment=0][/attachment]
I think the hex jars are smaller than my test jars but I still think they are much more attractive. They are about 50% more to purchase (from memory). As you said, efficient use of space could be achieved with the hexagonal shape. If I filled the board to capacity, I could possibly fit about 30 jars in. G3farm?s idea of swapping locations of jars is an interesting one. I might try that just for fun. It would be nice to know the answer. The other thought was to place a dribble of honey in the jars where there is minimal activity. Initially, I may leave everything alone for a few days to see if the bees start anything without intervention. The best outcome in my opinion would be for the bees to draw out the smear of wax on the bottoms of four of the jars as this would be the easiest of the techniques and would supply a pure, entirely natural comb. Time will tell.
It also may be harder for the bees to reach the top of the jar with just the melted beeswax. Also probably harder to hang on.
Quotecao
It also may be harder for the bees to reach the top of the jar with just the melted beeswax. Also probably harder to hang on.
That seems logical, I think so Cao.
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 26, 2022, 10:10:04 AM
Quotecao
It also may be harder for the bees to reach the top of the jar with just the melted beeswax. Also probably harder to hang on.
That seems logical, I think so Cao.
I agree, that is a great point, Cao. Bees inside a hive typically don't fly, and if they can't crawl up the smooth glass, they'll probably ignore the starter strip at the top (or bottom, depending on how you look at it) of the jar.
Quote from: The15thMember on January 26, 2022, 11:08:22 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 26, 2022, 10:10:04 AM
Quotecao
It also may be harder for the bees to reach the top of the jar with just the melted beeswax. Also probably harder to hang on.
That seems logical, I think so Cao.
I agree, that is a great point, Cao. Bees inside a hive typically don't fly, and if they can't crawl up the smooth glass, they'll probably ignore the starter strip at the top (or bottom, depending on how you look at it) of the jar.
Yes Member and Cao, building on those thoughts, I am thinking the wider the area to climb up, the more bees that can reach the working point at the same time, (having more room to work), making the whole situation more efficient?
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 26, 2022, 11:11:35 AM
Yes Member and Cao, building on those thoughts, I am thinking the wider the area to climb up, the more bees that can reach the working point at the same time, (having more room to work), making the whole situation more efficient?
Probably so, but I was actually thinking about from the opposite direction. If you wanted to use less of a starter strip, I think the way to go would be to make it long and skinny and dangling down toward the mouth of the jar, perhaps slightly off-center so the bees could reach it from the rim, as opposed to shallow and wide and deep in the jar.
Quote from: The15thMember on January 26, 2022, 11:21:04 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 26, 2022, 11:11:35 AM
Yes Member and Cao, building on those thoughts, I am thinking the wider the area to climb up, the more bees that can reach the working point at the same time, (having more room to work), making the whole situation more efficient?
Probably so, but I was actually thinking about from the opposite direction. If you wanted to use less of a starter strip, I think the way to go would be to make it long and skinny and dangling down toward the mouth of the jar, perhaps slightly off-center so the bees could reach it from the rim, as opposed to shallow and wide and deep in the jar.
Maybe so! :grin:
Maybe you and I along with the rest of us showing interest in what Les is doing, can do the same, (continue experimenting). It is good for each of us to share our ideas. The more good thoughts, input, and advice we each share with one another, the more avenues each of us can pursue in our experiments, achieving forward advancement of a better product... Keep up the good work Les! Keep the ideas coming in friends!
Phillip
Just to add to the conversation. When I took the photo yesterday, it was early in the morning, it was cool and the bees were just heading out. I decided to have another look in the middle of the day and there was a lot more activity in all off the jars. The bees were all over the long strip of foundation, were actively working on the starter strips and there were quite a few bees in the jars with the melted beeswax in the bottom. They easily crawled up the side of the jars so access wasn?t a problem. When they got to the wax at the bottom of the jar, they just walked around as if they were looking for somewhere to start. Do they need the help in relation to a starter strip or will they begin drawing comb eventually themselves? I am guessing that they would eventually but I?d be interested in your thoughts. It will also be interesting to see if the small starter strips catch up to the larger piece of foundation in relation to filling the cavity with drawn comb. The idea of a long skinny starter strip also sounds interesting. It may actually attract the bees. There appears to be so many options to try. Hopefully quite a few people can experiment with this method and discover little tricks that improve the method. Getting back to my opening comment, any ideas as to why there would be less activity in the jars early in the morning?
Quote from: Lesgold on January 26, 2022, 03:19:44 PM
They easily crawled up the side of the jars so access wasn?t a problem. When they got to the wax at the bottom of the jar, they just walked around as if they were looking for somewhere to start. Do they need the help in relation to a starter strip or will they begin drawing comb eventually themselves? I am guessing that they would eventually but I?d be interested in your thoughts.
Oh that's good to know. As long as they can walk on the glass, I think they'll probably take to it eventually. Obviously something hanging down vertically will probably induce them to draw faster, as that's the basis on which all starter strips for frames are founded, but I'd imagine they'd get going on the flat wax at some point. There are no starter strips in hollow trees. :happy:
Quote from: Lesgold on January 26, 2022, 03:19:44 PM
Getting back to my opening comment, any ideas as to why there would be less activity in the jars early in the morning?
What are your nighttime temps like right now? Glass is a good insulator, so is it possible that the interior of the jars is still cool in the morning, which is making the bees less interested in them until they warm up?
Hi Member. I think you nailed it. Just after making that comment I thought I?d go and check the jars. It?s early morning here and I went down to the bees before the sun came up. When I took the lid off and had a look inside, I noticed that only a few bees were in the jars. The other thing that I did notice was the temperature inside the box. It was quite cool. Looking through the jars I could see that the bees were waiting just below the opening, ready to climb up. Our overnight temperature dropped to about 16 degrees (it may have been cooler at the hives) and the temperature in the box covering the jars was only slightly warmer than that. As the day warms up, the bees will climb up again. Does this mean that a loss in temperature will slow the process? There appears to be a lot more to this process than what we initially thought.
QuoteThe15thMember
Obviously something hanging down vertically will probably induce them to draw faster, as that's the basis on which all starter strips for frames are founded,
Agreed, plus the starter strip also serves the 'equally' important function as a 'guide', directing from what point we wish for our bees to draw this comb. In this case, the center of our jars. The starter strip should insure uniformness of comb building throughout the jar system..
Phillip
QuoteLesgold
Does this mean that a loss in temperature will slow the process? There appears to be a lot more to this process than what we initially thought.
Good point and possibly that the temps will slow the process. Dependent on how fast the temperatures rise during the day and the Suns' infrared heat factor involved. Maybe the bees will keep the jar comb warm enough anyway? Heat rises and the heat should be basically tapped or 'retained' 'if you will', in the jar once it rises to that point....
Phillip
I?ve just come up from the workshop. Members comments got me thinking about the temperature issue. Either decreasing the open space or increasing the number of bees in that space could improve the situation. Jurassic?s higher density of jars could possibly help or a shallower super covering the jars could reduce some of the heat loss. I?ve just cut up some styrofoam to act as an insulator. I?ll go down now and fit it. Will take a pic when it?s in place. Always good to try things out to see what happens. Members comment about not having foundation also got me thinking. I had a few pieces of newly formed bridging comb sitting ready to be melted down. Thought I?d put a piece in a jar to see what would happen. When I applied some heat to the bottom of the jar, it started to rapidly melt away. It was actually quite funny. I was blowing onto the bottom of the jar to try to cool it quickly as my pyramid of comb slowly dissolved into a blob of wax. Managed to salvage a small piece. At least it would be a starting point for the bees.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Popped some styrofoam around the sides of the box
[attachment=0][/attachment]
And then put a lid on it.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Will see what happens over the next couple of days.
QuoteLesgold
Getting back to my opening comment, any ideas as to why there would be less activity in the jars early in the morning?
Again, temperature possibly? What does your bees do in the the earlier morning in a similar circumstance as viewed through an observation hive?
Phillip
QuoteLesgold
Popped some styrofoam around the sides of the box
Looks good!
Phillip
I suppose the difference in an observation hive is the bees can still cluster in numbers whereas in a small confined jar space, the bees would be relying only on the heat that rises from below. I am only guessing and clutching at straws here. It?s all new territory. I am sure we will learn as we go. It?s a pity that we have opposing seasons and can?t conduct experiments and compare notes as we go. I look forward to seeing what other people come up with during your spring flow.
Thanks Les, I did not phrase my question clearly. What my meaning was; Are the bees less active during cool mornings when in an observation hive, similar as the slow activity that you witnessed with the jar hive set up? In other words, are bees naturally less active in the comb area on cool mornings regardless of the type of hive they reside?
Phillip
QuoteLesgold
I am sure we will learn as we go. It?s a pity that we have opposing seasons and can?t conduct experiments and compare notes as we go. I look forward to seeing what other people come up with during your spring flow.
It won't be to terribly long now. You have came up with some really good stuff Les! I look forward to seeing what we as a group can contribute as well.
Cheers,
Phillip
Some really really good points made by everybody for sure!
I agree about the cooler temps in the morning, but also there is not any nectar coming into the hive so they really don't have anything to work with either. I would think sometime in the very early morning hours all of the pollen and nectar would have been put away.......just my thinking anyway.
I do like the insulation you added to the hive, I think that will work better.
I thought of another way :wink:
What if the jars could be laid on their sides? with the starter strip or bead of wax on the side of the jar. Was thinking they could build the comb quicker since they would not have as far to climb up the side of the jar and more comb (starter strip) would be exposed (the length of the jar vs the diameter of the jar).
G3 thumbs up for the picture under your name....👍🏻
Good point G3. But can I throw it back to you. Have you ever put a super on a strong hive late in the afternoon and come back to check for some reason early the next morning? They seem to get a lot done over night.
Jars on their side? Interesting thought. My brain is hurting again just thinking about it. It would be a fantastic design problem as there could be quite a few different approaches worth trying. Would love to see some concept sketches on that approach. :grin: :grin: :grin:
Quote from: G3farms on January 26, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
Some really really good points made by everybody for sure!
I agree about the cooler temps in the morning, but also there is not any nectar coming into the hive so they really don't have anything to work with either. I would think sometime in the very early morning hours all of the pollen and nectar would have been put away.......just my thinking anyway.
I do like the insulation you added to the hive, I think that will work better.
I thought of another way :wink:
What if the jars could be laid on their sides? with the starter strip or bead of wax on the side of the jar. Was thinking they could build the comb quicker since they would not have as far to climb up the side of the jar and more comb (starter strip) would be exposed (the length of the jar vs the diameter of the jar).
I like that too! Has to help....
I suppose the real advantage of jars placed as shown by Jurassic, top down, is more jars per level as the picture shows in reply 111. And again in reply 129 by Lesgold, real space savers and a grand opportunity for more production per box. Keep the good ideas and questions coming G3farms. Appreciate you chiming in!
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 26, 2022, 09:33:15 PM
G3 thumbs up for the picture under your name....👍🏻
Some of last years chink honey, that sells out very quick anymore.
For years I could not get in the right rhythm. I would make chink honey and nobody wanted any, then next year would not make any and everybody wanted a case or two.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 26, 2022, 09:58:20 PM
Good point G3. But can I throw it back to you. Have you ever put a super on a strong hive late in the afternoon and come back to check for some reason early the next morning? They seem to get a lot done over night.
Jars on their side? Interesting thought. My brain is hurting again just thinking about it. It would be a fantastic design problem as there could be quite a few different approaches worth trying. Would love to see some concept sketches on that approach. :grin: :grin: :grin:
Yep I have to look, just can't help it sometimes. They are funny critters for sure and can really surprise you sometimes. :shocked:
I can see a couple of ways to lay them on the side, but would limited to a certain size jar.
Just crazy thinking!
Quote from: G3farms on January 26, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
I agree about the cooler temps in the morning, but also there is not any nectar coming into the hive so they really don't have anything to work with either. I would think sometime in the very early morning hours all of the pollen and nectar would have been put away.......just my thinking anyway.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 26, 2022, 09:58:20 PM
Good point G3. But can I throw it back to you. Have you ever put a super on a strong hive late in the afternoon and come back to check for some reason early the next morning? They seem to get a lot done over night.
I think G3 has a point too, but I don't think it's so much about the nectar coming into the hive, but about the fact that the jars are isolated from the rest of the honey stores, since the bees who are building the comb are not foragers, but younger bees who haven't left the nest yet. The wax bees need to eat to produce wax, and then climb up into the jars, where it may be too cool for the wax to be worked easily in the early morning. Whereas with a freshly added super, the new area to be drawn out is warm and honey is easily accessible.
QuoteG3farms
For years I could not get in the right rhythm. I would make chink honey and nobody wanted any, then next year would not make any and everybody wanted a case or two.
I may be throwing a monkey wrench in the spokes with this post. There is another topic in progress titled
"reconstituting honey". What if after we do all this work, making great chunk honey, and then it crystalizes? What could be done in such a senerio? If the jars will be warmed to re-liquifed, can it be done at a delicate temperature that the wax comb 'will not' liquify yet the crystalized honey 'will' be liquified?
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 27, 2022, 02:16:29 PM
I may be throwing a monkey wrench in the spokes with this post. There is another topic in progress titled "reconstituting honey". What if after we do all this work, making great chunk honey, and then it crystalizes? What could be done in such a senerio? If the jars will be warmed to re-liquifed, can it be done at a delicate temperature that the wax comb 'will not' liquify yet the crystalized honey 'will' be liquified?
Phillip
Beeswax melts at 64 degrees C and 147 degrees F, so it shouldn't be a problem to reliquefy chunk honey if it crystallizes, as you don't want to heat the honey over 45C/115F anyway.
Quote from: The15thMember on January 27, 2022, 02:36:46 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 27, 2022, 02:16:29 PM
I may be throwing a monkey wrench in the spokes with this post. There is another topic in progress titled "reconstituting honey". What if after we do all this work, making great chunk honey, and then it crystalizes? What could be done in such a senerio? If the jars will be warmed to re-liquifed, can it be done at a delicate temperature that the wax comb 'will not' liquify yet the crystalized honey 'will' be liquified?
Phillip
Beeswax melts at 64 degrees C and 147 degrees F, so it shouldn't be a problem to reliquefy chunk honey if it crystallizes, as you don't want to heat the honey over 45C/115F anyway.
Thats a relief Reagan! Thanks for doing the research!
Phillip
Quote from: The15thMember on January 27, 2022, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: G3farms on January 26, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
I agree about the cooler temps in the morning, but also there is not any nectar coming into the hive so they really don't have anything to work with either. I would think sometime in the very early morning hours all of the pollen and nectar would have been put away.......just my thinking anyway.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 26, 2022, 09:58:20 PM
Good point G3. But can I throw it back to you. Have you ever put a super on a strong hive late in the afternoon and come back to check for some reason early the next morning? They seem to get a lot done over night.
I think G3 has a point too, but I don't think it's so much about the nectar coming into the hive, but about the fact that the jars are isolated from the rest of the honey stores, since the bees who are building the comb are not foragers, but younger bees who haven't left the nest yet. The wax bees need to eat to produce wax, and then climb up into the jars, where it may be too cool for the wax to be worked easily in the early morning. Whereas with a freshly added super, the new area to be drawn out is warm and honey is easily accessible.
You present more good points Member. Les has done a good job in preventing these jars from being exposed to raw cold in the upper chamber from outside temperature influence by adding insulation on all sides of the jars and on top as well, totally enclosing the jar area. This should be a real asset on those cool mornings? That and taking in consideration that heat rises, the jars hypothetically should be as warm as the hive or close enough being they are at the highest point of the hive? At least on the inside of the jar? Maybe another good reason to use full length starter strips as shown in reply #114. That way the bees will not be expected to climb the outer edge of the jar which may be sightly cooler than the warm rising air inside the jar?
Personally, I think the good news is when the flow is in full swing, the bees should kick in full swing as well if all is set up correctly as Les appears to be doing his best even now. Really I do not think the cool mornings will have much of an effect when the weather warms up enough for a full 'out and out' spring flow... I may be wrong though. lol
Together we are seeking and will learn to overcome the obstacles which may occur. I am sure there are other unseen factors that may be involved which we have not brought up yet...
Each post is valuable in my opinion.. In these experiments we will learn as we go..
Y'all are a great crew to be associated with !! 👍🏻
Phillip
Good point Member about the bees making wax. Sometimes the answers to our questions are not as simple as we would think. As Phillip has stated, there are some interesting and thought provoking comments coming in. They all help to provide us with a bit more understanding which is what this forum is all about. A comment was made about the bees having difficulty in climbing up the side of the jars. I said yesterday that this wasn?t an issue. Yesterday when I put the insulation in place, I decided to watch the jars for a while and see what was actually happening. Bees were climbing up the sides of all jars but their behaviour was different in each style of jar. Where there was a large surface of wax, the whole area was covered in bees and they were actively drawing wax. On the smaller starter strips, only a small number of bees were working the wax. In fact, only the surface of the starter strip was covered in bees. The interesting jar was the one where a small quantity of melted wax melted to the bottom. The bees would climb up the side of the jar, walk on the wax as if they were looking for something and they would then fall and then return to the side of the jar. There was only festooning on the large strip of wax. I still believe that a heavy flow would change this situation considerably and there would be more urgency shown by the bees.
Just went down to check if the insulation had any impact. Definitely warmer and there were a few more bees in the jars than yesterday but it really did not encourage big numbers to stay. I?m going to leave it in place as I believe it will help to stabilise the jar temperature but from the perspective of keeping large numbers of bees in place over night it was a failure. At least we now know that there is more activity when the bees are working during the day which was Members earlier comment. 👍👍👍
Just a bit of an update on the jars. The foundation continues to be drawn out and down on the jars with the large wax strip. Jars with starter strips are making some progress but it is slow. The jars with wax at the bottom are not being touched by the bees at all. This may be reflective of the reduced amount of nectar coming in as there is no urgency shown by the bees. Will keep reporting as there is the odd tree flowering and conditions may change. I would confidently say that a good flow would have the bees filling all jar types quickly.
Cheers
Les
QuoteLesgold
I would confidently say that a good flow would have the bees filling all jar types quickly.
And that is a good thing considering this is our objective goal, but: This brings up another question. How we do prevent a swarm situation during a heavy flow using this method? We will need to leave the jar box on until capped. And it does no good to add another box on top because it can't be reached. If we place a full box of empty frames below the bees before the jar honey is capped, the bees may not cap the jar honey? They may instead retreat from this chore and concentrate of the lower box of empty frames? How do we work this the correct way without causing a swarm mode?
Thanks,
Phillip
Ben,
One way is to move your queen to a Nuc box and let them make a new queen while they are making your comb. If you set it up this week one week before you start the comb the bees will not have any brood to feed and will have lots of nectar to make honey. Also they will not need pollen so all their efforts will bee on making comb and honey.
Plus you will now have a spare Nuc if you need it.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on January 30, 2022, 08:53:57 AM
Ben,
One way is to move your queen to a Nuc box and let them make a new queen while they are making your comb. If you set it up this week one week before you start the comb the bees will not have any brood to feed and will have lots of nectar to make honey. Also they will not need pollen so all their efforts will bee on making comb and honey.
Plus you will now have a spare Nuc if you need it.
Jim Altmiller
Thanks Jim Yes, that is one way that should stop a swarm situation that deserves consideration.
Phillip
Does anyone have thoughts or know of other ways that might also prevent a swarm situation during a heavy flow using the jar method?
Thanks,
Phillip
That?s a good idea Jim. It solves 2 problems at the same time. Phillip, I assume from your question that your honey flow occurs during the spring. If that is the case, normal swarm control methods would need to be employed. I added the jars on top of a super that was almost ready for capping and the hive was due for another super anyway.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 30, 2022, 03:58:02 PM
That?s a good idea Jim. It solves 2 problems at the same time. Phillip, I assume from your question that your honey flow occurs during the spring. If that is the case, normal swarm control methods would need to be employed. I added the jars on top of a super that was almost ready for capping and the hive was due for another super anyway.
Swarm questions concerns with the jar method started at reply 148 considering a full flow and the problems that 'might occur' while using the jar comb method during that time.. Spinning off 'unique swarm concerns'
not associated with normal swarm control.. :-)
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 29, 2022, 10:53:37 PM
QuoteLesgold
I would confidently say that a good flow would have the bees filling all jar types quickly.
And that is a good thing considering this is our objective goal, but: This brings up another question. How we do prevent a swarm situation during a heavy flow using this method? We will need to leave the jar box on until capped. And it does no good to add another box on top because it can't be reached. If we place a full box of empty frames below the bees before the jar honey is capped, the bees may not cap the jar honey? They may instead retreat from this chore and concentrate of the lower box of empty frames? How do we work this the correct way without causing a swarm mode?
Thanks,
Phillip
Phillip, I think I understand what you are asking but I don?t believe it should really be a major issue. When I started the mini frames, I ran through the spring build up and swarming period by just adding the mini frames on top of a super. You could do the same thing with the jars. Just give the bees plenty of work to do. On that particular hive, I still took off two nucs as a swarm control method and added frames with foundation as replacements. That was enough to stop that hive from swarming but still keep bee numbers quite high. That worked for me in my situation but I you may have to use a slightly different approach in your area. In my neck of the woods, I get a reliable spring flow every year that will produce a surplus. It
Is often not the main honey flow but it does contribute to swarming issues. After that time, a major flow can occur in the summer, autumn and occasionally winter so my conditions are different to yours. I took a pic of the hive the day before adding the jars. It was a hot day and the girls were out getting a tan. This hive swarmed in the spring but the new girl did a good job of rebuilding stocks. This hive yielded about 25kg of honey after swarming. (It was a pity that I didn?t get to it and stop half of the crowd leaving as I would have ended up with a lot more)
[attachment=0][/attachment]
If I added the jars to this hive about a month ago when the flow was still in progress, I reckon I would have all of them removed by now. My timing for adding the jars was poor but I knew that at the time. This was just a bit of fun to see what the bees would do. Basically, this was an activity to gain a bit of knowledge so that when the next flow arrives, some of the guess work will be removed. I look forward to hearing about your approach and the issues that you may encounter along the way. If we continue to share, question and ask, our chances for achieving success must improve. I will continue to give feedback on how the comb building progresses but I wouldn?t take too much notice of the time taken due to the small amount of nectar coming in.
Thanks Les, as long as the bees will finish the jar honey set up after we add the empty framed honey super below, necessary for working space and normal swarm prevention, I see no problem. It is my experience that if adequate working space is not introduced fast enough the bees will go into swarm mode.. In a hard full flow this can happen fast.
SHB are an issue here and I would not want the jars to be (set aside) by the bees once the necessary empty box is installed below, concentrating there efforts there instead.. Once the bees begin working the jars I would feel better knowing they continue until the jars are finished, allowing me to remove and freeze ASAP... I am looking far ahead, attempting to head off potential problems at the pass. lol
Phillip
I agree with you Phillip. Having questions answered ahead of time helps to prevent problems later. You raised another interesting point about beetles. They are another potential issue that we may have to consider. I will watch to see if SHB enter the jars. Will keep people posted.
I made an inspection of the jars yesterday. No more progress has been made due to the lack of nectar coming in. I will pull them off the hive and seal the jars after letting them air for a day. Will pop them back on when the next honey flow begins in a couple of months. The system works well but I can?t really give any reliable feedback as to what style of wax works best. My personal opinion is that they will all do the job but I need a good flow to prove that. At this point in time, the foundation strips that fill the jar did the best job. I hope what I have presented gives you some ideas to work on. Will keep updating the other comb section methods as ideas come along.
Cheers
Les
Les your have done a great job in your experiment as well as your explanations of your experiment. . I have learned a lot from you. Thanks for sharing your experience as you learn yourself .👍🏻
Phillip
Hi Folks,
Just wanted to give a bit of an update on the round honey comb sections that I was speaking to you about earlier in the thread. You may remember that I was using recycled 1.25 soft drink containers to make the rounds. They were quite popular with friends and relatives over the Christmas period but the big issue with them is that I could not sell legally sell them. What I really needed was a new container which would rectify this problem and get rid of supply issues. I have decided to try a PET jar. The jar that I?m considering using holds 750ml of liquid. (2.2 lbs or 1kg of honey) This is a very common jar and is the most popular size that people demand when purchasing honey from me. When not using glass, this is my go to. My wife often posts honey and this is the favoured container for that purpose. It is also the cheapest container that I can buy in that size.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
As you can see from the photo, there is a flat section in the centre of the jar. I can get 3 rings out of each container. Cost for the jar is about 56 cents. The diameter of that section is 83mm which is slightly smaller than what the Pepsi bottle rings. I am not concerned with that as it will still produce quite a large chunk of comb. I?m just finalising the construction of the frame and jigs required. Will post progress reports as they are developed.
I used the wood lathe again as a method for cutting the rings. The bottom of the jar is cut off with s knife and scissors and it is then placed on a plug that I turned up. A follower block holds the jar in place. This is almost identical to my original technique.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
The rings are cut as per the original technique with the results shown below:
[attachment=1][/attachment]
The rings are a bit thicker and a bit more rigid than the soft drink bottle version. I decided to time how long it took to convert the jar into the comb section rings pictured above to give you guys some idea of the time commitment involved. After cutting off the base, placing the jar on the lathe, cutting the rings, removing them from the lathe and placing all components on the work bench took 76 seconds. The point that I?m trying to make here is that these rings can be made quickly and cheaply. This is the big advantage of this technique over all of the other methods that I have presented. I will make a frame over the next day or so. I hope that I can find a holesaw cutter that will do the job.
Cheers
Les
How about an adjustable hole saw.............not just the one shown but look down the page and you will see different makes of them.
https://www.amazon.com/MIBRO-460271-Adjustable-Circle-Cutter/dp/B001C00ZRK
Good point G3. I?ve got one somewhere that I made years ago. They actually work quite well as long as you use the correct speed and a slow feed rate. Work also needs to be cramped well to a sacrificial backing board so that the cutter gives a good finish as it exits the material. Wish I?d thought about it before buying another holesaw cutter yesterday. I?m not overly concerned however as the standard holesaw is quicker and gives a better finish. In saying that, I?m getting a good collection of different sized cutters. Lol
Today was the first chance I?ve had to do a bit of an inspection of hives. A lot of wind and rain has kept me away. I removed the jars that I had set up on a hive. Very few bees were entering them and comb building had basically stopped. Today was my chance to find out what was going on. In the last week, quite a few trees had come into flower so I was expecting some activity. The reason why activity ceased was exactly the same as an issue I had with Ross Rounds. The bees capped honey in the super below the jars and then started pumping nectar into the top brood box. So the moral of the story is to use one brood box and make sure the bees don?t have any options or choice as to where they can store nectar. Gee I am a slow learner.
A sunny morning so I decided to check my mini frames to see how the sections were progressing. Took my phone with me and grabbed a bit of rough footage. Storms are just about to hit so the beekeeping stopped and the video editing started. (I?m pretty sure that I am hyperactive and can?t sit still) Its not real flash but it may show you how this system works. Hope you can get something useful from it.
Cheers
Les
https://youtu.be/TVTH2ZcmlNM
Hi Folks,
Just a bit of an update on the comb building in jars. Two weeks ago I took the jars off the hive. My intention was to store them until the next flow. A change in plan occurred when a few more mahogany trees started to flower. I decided to place the jars on the hive that held the Ross Rounds. Action in the jars increased immediately in most of the jars. Nectar was being deposited and comb building continued. The jars with a large piece of foundation in them have made very good progress. Some of them should have capped comb soon. Jars with starter strips only have about half the number of bees working them and progress is occurring at a much slower rate. The jars with a small quantity of melted wax at the base are now basically being ignored. Today I took all of the unproductive jars away and popped strips of foundation into them. The bees rushed into those jars within seconds. It was amazing to see. My thinking is that bees treat glass in a similar manner to plastic. They just don?t like it. Here is one jar that I removed that had a piece of burr comb attached to the base.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
The bees did very little work on that. Notice that the jar is a little smudged on the inside due to bee traffic.
The second jar had wax painted on the base and sides. There was some activity but it was also very slow.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
I will get a few more pics of the other jars in a day or so.
Cheers
Les
Great information, thanks for the update
Thanks for the update Les.
Looks like the foundation wins out.
What is the easiest way you have found for installing the foundation?
Sorry G3, I thought I?d responded to your question. Have a look at reply #97. This is the method I use.
Here?s a visual update of the comb building in jars. Looks like the bees are very happy working the foundation.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Great work. You are handier than I. The rounds would be lovely for friends and family. Good video too. Thankyou.
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This looks outstanding! From the top view looking down, the bees look to be doing a good job of keeping everything uniform in the middle of the jars..
If you were to decide to up the volume many more hives per many more jars. Your selling comb honey in a jar "toped off with golden rich honey", you should receive premium price per jar for your effort.. What are your thoughts?
Thanks.
Phillip
Quote from: Lesgold on December 20, 2021, 05:41:00 PM
Hi Folks,
Just thought I?d add a little bit more information in relation to the development of the rounds. As I said in an earlier post, the clear rounds are visually appealing but they are still plastic. I wanted to go back to where I initially started on this journey and see if I could develop the timber rounds to a point where they were easy to make and looked the part. After a bit of experimenting, I started to get acceptable results. This is how I made them.
https://youtu.be/m1J7-Rtjmso
Nice video and option. Thankyou.
Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
Hi Phillip.
I would be able to get 24 jars of that size to fit into the super. As you said in an earlier post, hex jars may utilise the space a bit more efficiently. I see this as another alternative to encourage the general public to show some interest in beekeeping. It would be a good talking point at markets etc. Thanks for the feedback loisl58. They have been quite popular over the past few months.
Reference to the plywood. That inset hole saw idea is neat. Did you drill it twice or thread two hole saws onto the arbor at the same time with a large washer in between the two hole saws, causing the inner hole to be cut deeper than the outer one.
Another option is to just drill it like you would for a jar feeder. Keep an old set of canning rings on the jars while being drawn out. Once those jars are pulled and filled you put a new lid on them and put the old canning rings on the next set.
Hi .30WCF
Your idea is a good one and would be an excellent way to go. I didn?t have any mason jars so I had to do it another way. The holes were drilled twice. The larger hole was drilled first to a set depth and then the smaller hole was drilled. This allowed for perfect alignment of the holes as the 1/4? drill in the centre of the holesaw was able to pass through the first hole that was drilled. A wide mouthed mason jar would be my number one choice if they could be purchased for a reasonable price. In my part of the world they are quite expensive and would not be my best option. The value of this type of product would also be a consideration.
Cheers
Les
Quote from: NigelP on December 17, 2021, 07:51:43 AM
I sell a lot of comb honey but have given up on trying to get the rounds. My bees simply don't fill them well. I use thin foundation (or strips) and either sell whole combs packeted with a stand or use a cut comb honey cutter (or a knife) to cut sections out to fill the cut comb containers. I'd love to sell nothing else as it's much easier to do than extracting honey which is a real chore.
(https://i.ibb.co/GdCXvR3/comb.jpg)
Nice thank you
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Love the square design and frame design. Seems like something I could try to make on a good day.
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Beautiful rounds 24 Dec.
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Quote from: Lesgold on February 26, 2022, 02:39:51 AM
Here?s a visual update of the comb building in jars. Looks like the bees are very happy working the foundation.
Les, the time is getting near for me to try this! Our Spring flow is just around the corner!
Phillip
Les my apologies. I could not get the picture to come out like yours.
Phillip
Good to hear Phillip. I ended up leaving mine on the hive even though the flow had finished a couple of months ago. There is still quite a lot of honey in some of the jars which the bees can use as required. Good luck with your attempt. With a solid flow, they will fill the jars quickly.
Thanks Les.
Phillip
Nice job. You inventors are wonderful.
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Looks like this season will be a slow one for comb honey production. Only a mild flow on at the moment but it may build over the next month. I?m just about to pull a box of mini frames off a hive. I made the mistake of only using starter strips on the frames instead of homemade foundation. The result was uneven comb due to the fact that the bees were drawing the comb at different rates throughout the box. When using starter strips, there is a requirement for more manipulation of the frames to ensure that comb is built evenly. Using foundation required more initial work but the end result is achieved with fewer frame movements. The new box is ready to go.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
I have made up some mini collection boxes to hold the frames as they are harvested. This allows me to clean off propolis and burr comb as I go. A bottom on the box stops any honey drips.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
The foundation was made, cut and installed yesterday. The bees tend to prefer freshly melted wax over foundation that has been stored.
[attachment=2][/attachment]
Hopefully I will harvest some more comb honey early in the new year.
That setup looks like so much fun to harvest. Just pull the cartridges out and box 'em up! :happy:
They are easy to harvest. I have only just finished pulling a box off a hive. There was some unusual shaped comb in places. I put the box shown above on the hive to replace it and the bees should start drawing the foundation out in a couple of days. At least this new batch will have a better shape to the comb. The frames will be lightly vacuum sealed and then stored in the freezer until market time where they will be defrosted and labelled. I?ll post a pic of one of the sealed frames when I get to that job. The general public don?t mind this way of purchasing the product because they can pick it up and turn it around. It?s much cheaper than boxing it and is quite sturdy due to the frame surrounding the comb.
This is genius!
I don't have skills or the tools to make these little boxes.
I wish I had noted your comments before i started my new one.
I pulled another 4 frames this morning before it got too hot.
They are pretty well perfect and i will cut 6 pieces out of each frame plus a bit of chunk honey.
We sold enough of the Comb Honey in plexyglas containers to keep going. Nobody has complained about the Plexyglass...so far.
We sell the honey in Glass Jars and take and pay for returns. One shop is interested in stocking the Comb Honey " when they have some shelf space".
There are now 3 candles shops withing 50km from us and i took the rolled candles and Tealights to all.
All liked them but none ordered so far. One would prefer the Tealights in Plexyglass rather then Aluminium cups.
The market made me realise that presentation means a lot. My wife put some stick-on bees on some of the packages and they sold the quickest - the cuteness factor.
I think there you are on a winner with your wooden boxes.
QuoteThis is genius!
It is!
Phillip
Here is one of the frames ready for the freezer.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
I'm cutting up more Comb Honey today.
I watched a few more YouTubes.
They keep talking about " thin, sharp knives".
In this video the bloke cuts through the comb like butter https://www.google.com/search?q=cutting+comb+honey&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi6hLme0-b7AhVitlYBHZJZCcQQ_AUoA3oECAIQBQ&biw=1537&bih=771&dpr=1.2#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:c2a71ee3,vid:DsXp9gWhLxg
I use a thin, sharp knive ( one is a budding knife, one serrated) and it does not go as easy?
Any suggestions regarding cutting tool - the perfect one/
I don't use a knife for cut comb...too time consuming.
I use these. Just press and push out.
(https://www.thorne.co.uk/uploads/media/ProductImage/0001/15/thumb_14881_ProductImage_big.jpeg)
I have one of those cookie cutter devices, but it always seemed to crush the comb. I found them useful for marking the comb, but a sharp knife always worked better for the actual cutting.
I extracted over 500 combs this summer using it and not a single crushed comb. Been using the same cutter for over 10 years now.
You do need to periodically clean the pushout plate otherwise it leaves a bit of debris on the surface of the comb.
Wax varies greatly in strength at the same temperature and varies even more by temperature. I don't doubt you. I never had any luck with it.
Hi Folks, Max2,
I laughed when I watched the video of the guy with a "sharp knife".
I have a few that I use in the garden. It's a verry inexpensive "Quick Cut". Shup as a bestid. How many cuts in the thumb? I generally use it to trim suckers off tomatoes, maybe cut some twine. Thin blades. Not much use for anything else, except maybe now, cutting comb. I keep them outside year over year. Plastic handles break up in the sun over the years.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
https://www.amazon.com/Good-Cook-4-Piece-Quick-Paring/dp/B0028LXDMQ/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_w=TshRB&content-id=amzn1.sym.116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_p=116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_r=Y99XQ5HEKQG2K5MQW9RE&pd_rd_wg=VKxOm&pd_rd_r=aa8fa59d-d69e-42ff-9d7e-540e245bc2e8&pd_rd_i=B0028LXDMQ&psc=1
Sal
Quote from: Lesgold on December 06, 2022, 03:10:47 PM
Here is one of the frames ready for the freezer.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Yes Sir, You have it down to art work... I like the idea of the vacuumed sealed bag!!
Phillip
Quote from: max2 on December 07, 2022, 12:23:05 AM
I'm cutting up more Comb Honey today.
I watched a few more YouTubes.
They keep talking about " thin, sharp knives".
In this video the bloke cuts through the comb like butter https://www.google.com/search?q=cutting+comb+honey&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi6hLme0-b7AhVitlYBHZJZCcQQ_AUoA3oECAIQBQ&biw=1537&bih=771&dpr=1.2#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:c2a71ee3,vid:DsXp9gWhLxg
I use a thin, sharp knive ( one is a budding knife, one serrated) and it does not go as easy?
Any suggestions regarding cutting tool - the perfect one/
Max; The guy in the video is Tim Durham. He was the first man that I ever heard speak about bees when I was a boy. He was the 'young' speaker at the Memphis Beekeepers Association that particular night. I had tagged along with my uncle to that event not knowing much about honeybees; They will sting, they like White Dutch Clover, and they make a special treat for the hot buttered biscuit. :-)
Tim had moved here from North Carolina and had the extremely large audience captivated during his presentation...
Phillip
Thanks Phillip. I?m pleased with how the system works. Removing most of the air using the pulse action on the sealer keeps the comb intact without crushing it. It also saves on space when freezing the comb. Condensation is not an issue if you keep the comb in the bag while defrosting. It is a much cheaper option than using plastic containers and sits well with the general public at the local markets. The clear plastic containers do look good and provide better comb protection but unfortunately there is nothing available to suit my custom mini frames.
Hi Folks,
Just checked on my mini combs today. I manipulated the frames a couple of times in the past two weeks to ensure they would be drawn evenly and was pleased with the progress the girls had made. If you look carefully, the white, newly drawn wax is easily seen.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Sorry about the quality of photos but it has been a bit of a challenge using only one hand at the moment. Thankfully my youngest daughter has been a champion in the way that she has helped out. She is cool, calm and collected in the hive. As you can see, the bees are depositing nectar in the outer frames which is a good indication of the flow that is in progress. The comb should be ready for harvest in a few weeks if the nectar continues to come in.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Cheers
Les
Good to see that "one handed Les" can manage.
I wish I had a young helper.
I took some honey off yesterday including a few 1/2 frames I will cut into comb honey.
We definitely have a good flow on and pretty well prefect weather again.
I was mowing this yard early this morning (around 7AM on the first day of the year) and the bees were very calm, coming in with heavy loads.
Often they are not too happy with the smell of petrol and the fast movements in front of the hives.
If the weather hold I plan to take more honey off tomorrow.
One question: how do you burn your name on the side of the boxes?
Hi Max
Happy new year to you and all forum members. I can?t mow around my bees without upsetting them unless there is a good flow on. Sounds like you have plenty of nectar coming in. Good luck with it. We did the markets yesterday and saw good crowds coming through after a slow start. Wish I had some comb to sell as people asked for it. Looks like it?s becoming a bit more popular, especially at this time of year. I had a brass stamp made for the mini frames. I just came up with some simple artwork and sent it off to a company who machined it out of a solid block of brass using a CNC router. I then attached the brass to a handle and the jobs done. The brand is heated with a propane torch.
I bought the branding iron from Mann Lake originally, but I bought additional irons from Nova: https://www.novatoolco.com The beehive ones are here: https://www.novatoolco.com/Brandingiron-BeeHive.htm
Can't say if they will ship to Australia or not... but I often buy things in Australia and have them shipped here.
Hi Folks,
With the markets coming up, I thought I?d have a quick peak into the hive carrying the mini frames. On inspection, about half were fully capped. As you would expect, the frames in the centre of the box were done with most of the outer ones getting close.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
When I first started using this system, I would wait until the frames were fully capped and then pull the whole box at once. As time went on, I started to take capped frames as required and replace them with with new frames. The problem with that method was that the bees would draw new comb in an uneven manner and the frames would end up being lop sided. The solution was quite simple. If I took 10 capped frames and then placed any new frames in one block, the bees would draw out the new comb evenly. This does require a bit of frame manipulation but that only takes a couple of minutes. The centre block was setup yesterday so that I could take what I needed today.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
If I was organised, the whole process could have been carried out in one operation but unfortunately I only had a few frames constructed and had to jump in and build some more and add foundation to them.
It was a simple task to take a couple of mini boxes down to the hive in prep for the rob.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
The centre block of frames was removed and replaced with new empties.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
The frames were quite good considering the small flow that we had over the summer.
[attachment=2][/attachment]
Even though the bees were quiet, I wore gloves to protect my injured hand. I should be able to repeat this process in a couple of weeks if the Black butts continue to flower.
Cheers
Les
With the season coming to a close, it is now time to start experimenting with comb honey frames again. The mini frames that I have been selling at the markets are quite popular and the bees seem to work them slightly better than the other designs that were shown early in the thread.They also require a little less work than the other methods. One criticism of the mini frames is the size. A smaller frame would suit some people and also keep the purchase price down a little. With this in mind, I started experimenting with a couple of designs.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
The first frame is one of the mini frames that I currently use. I can get 30 of those into a specially made 10 frame box. The second frame is a cut down version of the first frame. 50 would fit neatly into a custom box. The third frame is a smaller frame utilising a slightly different design. It would be a frame that is held by the base into small slots with bee space on all sides. This design would allow only 45 frames to a box.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Regardless of size, each frame cost less that 20 cents each to produce. At the moment my preference is for the cut down frame as it would give a better financial return per super but the appearance of the last frame is a little more appealing. I would be interested in your thoughts.
Cheers
Les
After quite a bit of thought, I decided to use the cutdown mini frame as it has a few advantages over the smaller frame. The main reasons are:
1) The cutdown min frame will fit 50 frames to the box rather than 45 of the smaller frames. ( this is due to bee space design)
2) End bars are concealed and do not get a build up of propolis and wax which makes cleaning a quick task before packaging.
3) This method works and modification of the design is only a minor task
4) unit cost is only about 5 cents more than the smaller frames
I just finished building and painting a box to hold the frames.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Material used was 120x19 pine. The ends of the box have rebates cut to a depth of 8mm.
Dividers are dropped down 8mm from the top of the box.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
The dividers are lifted 9mm from the bottom of the box to give bee space to allow horizontal movement of bees above the excluder.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Spacer blocks were used to keep dividers accurately spaced to ensure precise fitting of frames. You will see that some of my marking out was not correct which was corrected by the spacers. The next job will be to construct frame making jigs.
Just finished making an assembly jig for the new frames. The jig holds pieces in place for the stapler.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
This ensures that the frame is square and allows the nose of the stapler to sit in exactly the right position.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Next job will be to cut material to size and make 50 frames.
All the remaining jigs were constructed yesterday.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
They include a plug press for pushing and holding foundation in the frame, a jig for holding the frame while the hot stamp engraves the frame and two templates for cutting foundation to size. I bought two 8 foot length of 3x2 non structural pine from my local hardware store and cut and assembled all frames. This material may contain a knot or two (which is cut out) but the timber is only about 30 to 40% of normal untreated pine. I had enough material to make 60 frames plus a lot of the jig components. Unit frame cost ended up at 16 cents which is more than reasonable. Foundation was trimmed to size using the templates and a pizza cutter. It will be inserted into the frame during the next honey flow in the spring. All jigs did their job and cut assembly time considerably.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
It?s been a while since posting in this thread but I thought I?d show the latest development in this area. Over the last couple of days I?ve been playing with the laser cutter to produce frames for comb honey. Using thin plywood, box pieces can be accurately cut with finger joints to make assembly an easy task. A slot was cut in the top bar and grooves in the sides and bottom to allow a piece of foundation to be slipped into place. Top and bottom bars were shaped to give bee space. There is also potential for graphics and text to be added to the top of the frame. As the cutter does all this without much input from me, the time saving will be huge. As an example, while a number of frames are being cut out, I can be assembling frames and inserting foundation into boxes that have already been cut out. The size of frames, slots etc will be refined to suit the box being used and obviously the thickness of the foundation to be inserted.
Those look very nice, congratulations. Once I'm up and running, I'd like to dabble in comb honey a little. I'm not thinking a lot, just a little. Maybe I could put a deep super on with medium frames and let them build them out on the bottoms.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 13, 2024, 05:52:02 PM
Those look very nice, congratulations. Once I'm up and running, I'd like to dabble in comb honey a little. I'm not thinking a lot, just a little. Maybe I could put a deep super on with medium frames and let them build them out on the bottoms.
You could do that. You could also just not put foundation or wires in a frame or two. Or you could just never use foundation or wires; I don't! :happy:
A beekeeper I know still uses the wire to give strength to the comb and when he wants comb honey, he cuts the wires, attaches a battery charger briefly to each wire and then pulls it out of the comb while it is still hot. Clever thinking in my opinion.
That is genius!
Thanks for those tips, I'll try them all out and see what works best for me. I look forward to shoving a hunk of that in my mouth.
Another wet afternoon so it was a few hours confined to the computer and workshop. The morning was spent on the beach catching tonight?s dinner but the fishing was a bit slow. Plenty of time to think and solve a few more beekeeping issues. Two years ago I designed an adjustable frame for holding 8 mini boxes for comb honey. The system works quite well but there are issues with the design. The frame does take a reasonable amount of time to make and there are slight issues if all of the mini frames are not exact in their size. This often means a bit of packing with cardboard to ensure nothing moves once the frame is tightened. The other issue with this type of frame is that it requires the standard frames on each side to be evenly drawn and capped to enable the bees produce straight comb within the mini frames. Thought I?d start with the issue of the adjustable frame. If I could design and cut the top and bottom bars on the laser cutter, I could ensure accuracy with absolutely no error. I also wanted to make this frame using no machine tools. A lot of people don?t have extensive workshops or the background in using this type of gear so I limited myself to a handsaw and a hacksaw for this project to see if it could be done. Decided to use some 90x12 pine and see if the machine would handle it. A few samples were cut to determine the correct settings to get the best result.The board was cut a bit longer than required and was positioned in the laser. Due to the length of these two pieces, the timber had to be positioned diagonally on the laser bed. Holes were also marked out which meant no drill was needed. The top and bottom bars cut out very well. I am pleased that the laser can handle this thickness of material.
The burn took about 8 minutes due to the thickness of the material. While they were cutting I did some other work nearby. I was pleased with the result. Holes were exact. With a laser, you don?t have the drill wandering like you do when using a drill press. I did make a mistake with the size of the holes in the bottom bar. They needed to be larger to allow for the tee nuts that would be fitted underneath. A 30 second job on the software fixed the issue for any future cuts. I did drill these holes out so that the material would not be wasted. Tee nuts were then tapped into the bottom bar.
Some threaded rod was then cut with a hacksaw and screwed into the tee nuts. The top bar could then be slid into place.
The end bars in the original plan had a slot to hide the threaded rod. As I didn?t want to use a saw bench to cut this trench, I designedly the end bars to be made from 3 pieces of 9mm ply. I had some small off cuts lying around so I cut them with a hand saw to a size that would fit on the laser bed. The design was changed from the original plan to be similar to a standard frame end bar. This would provide extra support and holding power compared to what I am currently using. The end bars and spacers were cut without issue and a thin stream of Titebond 111 had everything glued up. A few spring cramps held the spacers in place for 20 minutes while the glue tacked off.
The spacers were cut .5mm less than the length required to allow extra pressure to be applied as the frame nuts are tightened. The frame went together better than expected. All components fitted well. The frame ends are only a mock up at this stage. I plan to change their shape slightly to allow bee space for entry into the comb honey sections. This will be done after the new comb frames are designed. So there you have it. A hand saw, a hacksaw and I?m sorry but a hammer was used to tap the tee nuts into place. The original frames that I made took over an hour to construct once I had the design sorted. Using the laser cutter, I took about 1 1/2 hours to design the frame, about half an hour to cut the components and about 5 minutes to cut material and threaded rod to size and glue up spacers. The next one will take about 5 to 10 minutes to make as I will be working on other projects while the laser does its thing. If multiple frames were to be made, this time would be reduced. Early next week, I will redesign the comb honey sections to fit this frame.
Great looking work Les. Thanks for all the details and photos.
Agreed, Les' work is awesome. I am envious of his talents.
Had a bit of time early this morning so I designed a new mini comb box to fit he adjustable frame. It only took about 20 minutes. Once one was designed, it was just a simple cut and paste exercise to block out a small piece of plywood. I was able to fit 5 frames on a 300mm x 300mm sheet and the machine took a bit over 20 minutes to cut out all 5. I decided to glue one up and came up with a simple way of applying the glue. A squeeze of glue was deposited on a scrap piece of cardboard. The fingers on half of the joint were wiped over the glue and this process was repeated 3 more times. The joints were then pushed together and the box was tested for square before being left for about 10 minutes. This process took less than a minute to complete so I was happy from that perspective. You may be able to notice the slots for the thin foundation and the curved sides to allow for bee space on all 4 sides. The depth of each curve is 5mm. When two frames are pushed together, 10mm bee space will be the result at the deepest point of the curves. I will glue up the remaining frames and cut some more tomorrow.
Quote from: AustinB on January 17, 2024, 09:01:10 AM
Great looking work Les. Thanks for all the details and photos.
I agree. Thumbs Up!
8 frames were glued up and then two strips of foundation were cut to fit the slots in the boxes. The foundation was fed through and surplus on the end was trimmed. The two blocks of four were then positioned into the adjustable frame. Everything fitted perfectly with only minimal tightening of the nuts on the threaded rod required. The plan is to cut the foundation between the mini frames with a thin knife after the bees have finished their job. The final task is to redesign the end bars to allow bee access from the sides. I should be able to do this later today.
The end bars were redesigned to allow bee entry from the sides. I cut some extra end bars to show what it would look like in position. Using off the shelf material and components such as threaded rod, tee nuts, wing nuts etc, the unit cost for each adjustable frame will be around $10. This cost could be reduced to about $5 if bulk purchases were made online. The mini frames will end up costing about 25 cents each (not including foundation) The best way to get good quality comb honey would be to add a full super of these frames to a strong hive in a good flow. I?m sure they will work as well or even better than the old design. The beauty of constructing the project this way is the time that will now be saved every time I need new components. I now have the files saved and the method sorted. Early next week I will be making some more candles for future markets. As I work on this task, the laser will be cutting out mini frames at the same time. Productivity will essentially double during those times.
This came across my feed today and it looks interesting. What do yous folks think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HSvM2qZixk
My problem with that, Terri, is that you can't get comb honey like that out of the package without destroying it. Like, part of the fun about comb honey is biting into that intact piece of comb, and if the bees build it into the plastic, you can't do that. And are lots of comb honey systems, like Ross Rounds and the Hogg Halfcombs, that preserve that experience for the consumer. Plus, I'd imagine a lot of consumers wouldn't be happy with all that plastic.
What 15 said and it is only one side of comb in the package. And they are expensive. Also, they only show the perfect ones. How many are going to be half filled.
It looks like they go into the frame back to back but I can see where they would be stuck in there.
Carl Killion wrote the book on how to do sections in "Honey in the Comb". He would paint the outside of the boxes with paraffin then after harvest he would scrape off the paraffin to remove any propolis from the box.
What would be the result of using a deep box for the super and putting in one or some medium frames?
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 26, 2024, 09:42:33 AM
What would be the result of using a deep box for the super and putting in one or some medium frames?
That very well may work. As I mentioned before, I often put shallow frames in medium boxes, and it's never caused a problem, but my bees don't always draw the shallows out to medium depth. The difference between a deep and a medium is greater than the difference between a medium and shallow, so that may not be a factor in this case. Also of course realize that a deep full of honey will be basically impossible to lift, unless you are VERY strong. That's not insurmountable, but recognize that it will make some tasks difficult.
Quote from: The15thMember on January 26, 2024, 03:48:40 PM
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 26, 2024, 09:42:33 AM
What would be the result of using a deep box for the super and putting in one or some medium frames?
That very well may work. As I mentioned before, I often put shallow frames in medium boxes, and it's never caused a problem, but my bees don't always draw the shallows out to medium depth. The difference between a deep and a medium is greater than the difference between a medium and shallow, so that may not be a factor in this case. Also of course realize that a deep full of honey will be basically impossible to lift, unless you are VERY strong. That's not insurmountable, but recognize that it will make some tasks difficult.
My neighbor was telling me that it would weigh about 90 lbs. But I'm a lazy old geezer and I've been figuring ways to make hard jobs easy for a long time. I would pull the frames out one at a time and set them into another box or container of some sort rather than try to lift the whole thing all at once.
You are right Reagan. I run all full depth gear and a deep full of honey has got a bit of weight to it. It?s not much fun when you have to dig down to the brood box. The weight issue will become an issue as I get older. The simplKomb system shown is a good bit of engineering. It?s been well thought out and very user friendly. For this system to be effective, a really strong hive in good honey flow would be required. Timing would be critical otherwise the bees would tend to ignore the plastic. It?s probably not the system I would recommend unless you are experienced in comb honey production. The other issue I have with this style of comb production is that you need to dig out the comb and honey with a spoon. You can?t cut out a full piece of comb with a knife so it tends to be messy when presented on a platter. For this reason alone, I have not ventured down the half comb method. To fill one medium with simplekomb, costs about $12 per frame. It is expensive for what it is but as it is the mini frame and package all in one, it turns out to be a cost effective at $1.50 per unit. The other advantage of this system is the time saving component. Setting up a super would take very little work and would give you a solid return on your investment if you could get the system to work. Putting a single frame in the middle of a super would be a good way to experiment with simplKomb.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 26, 2024, 03:58:18 PM
My neighbor was telling me that it would weigh about 90 lbs. But I'm a lazy old geezer and I've been figuring ways to make hard jobs easy for a long time. I would pull the frames out one at a time and set them into another box or container of some sort rather than try to lift the whole thing all at once.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 26, 2024, 04:30:58 PM
You are right Reagan. I run all full depth gear and a deep full of honey has got a bit of weight to it. It?s not much fun when you have to dig down to the brood box. The weight issue will become an issue as I get older.
As a woman, and a physically weak one at that, I can barely even lift a medium full of honey, so I actually harvest exactly like you described, Terry. The hassle comes from what Les described. If you need to inspect the brood nest below that heavy super and can't lift the box, you'll have remove each frame, one at the time, and then replace them one at the time, which is a lot of time wasted when inspecting. Plus if you have a colony that isn't too friendly, that's a far more invasive and lengthy set of manipulations for what would normally be a pretty quick job. Again, not insurmountable, and there are people like Les who do it and it works well for them. But I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't concerned about the weight in regards to harvesting, I was concerned about it in regards to inspecting.
Reagan, The tediousness and invasiveness of that process is duly noted. Thanks for the insight. Shorts in a medium sounds like a good way to start. And I'm not looking to sell comb honey, I'm just looking to enjoy some once in a while so I'm not looking for large amounts of it.
Also remember that if you don't want to mess around with other frame sizes, you can always forgo foundation/wires in a frame or two and just cut the comb out. We don't eat a lot of comb honey, but if I wanted some, that's what I'd do. That way I could make the pieces whatever size I wanted, instead of being limited to the little strip of comb below the off-size frame. I only use shallows in my mediums because I happen to have some shallow frames, not because I'm making comb honey with them.
Quote from: The15thMember on January 26, 2024, 03:48:40 PM
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 26, 2024, 09:42:33 AM
What would be the result of using a deep box for the super and putting in one or some medium frames?
That very well may work. As I mentioned before, I often put shallow frames in medium boxes, and it's never caused a problem, but my bees don't always draw the shallows out to medium depth. The difference between a deep and a medium is greater than the difference between a medium and shallow, so that may not be a factor in this case. Also of course realize that a deep full of honey will be basically impossible to lift, unless you are VERY strong. That's not insurmountable, but recognize that it will make some tasks difficult.
Though I have not tried this myself, I have watched several videos where this was done and the bees seemed to pretty much draw the mediums to a reasonable depth. Drawing from the bottom bottom bar, using it as a top bar..
Phillip
Back in my early days of mite fighting there was the idea of putting 2 medium frames in positions 1 and 10. This was before the green drone frames came out. When the bees draw the comb it would be drone cells. When the drone brood was capped you just cut it off and put it back. It didn't work to keep mites down. The drawbacks are the queen will lay in them if you don't use an excuder and you can't take them out and set them down. You have to have another box to set them in.
Quote from: beesnweeds on January 26, 2024, 10:53:38 PM
Back in my early days of mite fighting there was the idea of putting 2 medium frames in positions 1 and 10. This was before the green drone frames came out. When the bees draw the comb it would be drone cells. When the drone brood was capped you just cut it off and put it back. It didn't work to keep mites down. The drawbacks are the queen will lay in them if you don't use an excuder and you can't take them out and set them down. You have to have another box to set them in.
As it stands right now, I'll have extra boxes and frames at start-up but doesn't everyone have an extra box or two laying around for surprise events?
It is best to have plenty of extra Woodward.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 27, 2024, 06:48:04 AM
Quote from: beesnweeds on January 26, 2024, 10:53:38 PM
Back in my early days of mite fighting there was the idea of putting 2 medium frames in positions 1 and 10. This was before the green drone frames came out. When the bees draw the comb it would be drone cells. When the drone brood was capped you just cut it off and put it back. It didn't work to keep mites down. The drawbacks are the queen will lay in them if you don't use an excuder and you can't take them out and set them down. You have to have another box to set them in.
As it stands right now, I'll have extra boxes and frames at start-up but doesn't everyone have an extra box or two laying around for surprise events?
Of course, but when you start building up colonies and need to do quick inspections you will be surprised how often you left the extra box across the yard next to another hive looking in circles for it carrying the frame with the queen on it. When doing health checks less equipment is better. You'll see.
Also extra boxes get used up real quick during swarm/split season.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 27, 2024, 06:48:04 AM
As it stands right now, I'll have extra boxes and frames at start-up but doesn't everyone have an extra box or two laying around for surprise events?
Certainly you
should, but the question is
will you. :wink: More than once I've found myself on an emergency run to the next town over looking for 8 frame woodenware because either the honey flow was way more than I anticipated or I had way more swarms than I anticipated. I do always have an extra empty box with me during an inspection, as its a handy secure place to set frames.
Quotebecause either the honey flow was way more than I anticipated or I had way more swarms than I anticipated.
This is the way it always works. The whole barn is full of equipment after condensing bees down. You build a few more boxes, nucs, Buy a bunch of frames, and you think your ready for spring. Never enough, Never enough.
I find this interesting, because I have never figured it out.
Also, I tried this once. Cut a sheet of plastic foundation in half. center it in your frame. and let the bees build on both sides natural comb. It was a complete fail because they built almost all drone comb. Now minds turning, because this was before green frames also. so maybe a green frame and this mixed. I have some drone frames somewhere, I have to try.
And LES, I think I said it before you do beautiful work.
Thanks Bill,
Designing and building the frames is the easy bit. Having the bees fulfil their part of the agreement is the challenging part. I?m glad that the conversation is moving towards other aspects of comb honey production ie. equipment sizes and quantities, managing large hives and a variety of techniques explored. I may also consider a box of mediums for comb honey. This is what I use for the other style of mini frames that I have developed. Most of the design work has been done and it would only take about 15 minutes to modify this current design to suit.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 27, 2024, 06:48:04 AM
As it stands right now, I'll have extra boxes and frames at start-up but doesn't everyone have an extra box or two laying around for surprise events?
Right now I have about 60+ boxes laying around.
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 27, 2024, 12:14:10 PM
It is best to have plenty of extra Woodward.
Yes, it is. I always seem to run short on nuc boxes. Seems if I have an empty nuc box it will get filled with bees.
Quote from: Bill Murray on January 28, 2024, 08:00:28 PM
Also, I tried this once. Cut a sheet of plastic foundation in half. center it in your frame. and let the bees build on both sides natural comb.
I have done this also. This was just one of the ways I was transitioning to foundationless frames. And yes they usually will draw it out in drone comb.
OK, I figure that drone comb is different size than others but if it's up in the honey super, will that matter?
If you have an excluder the difference is that it's MUCH easier to extract drone comb. If you don't have an excluder and there is little drone comb in the brood nest, the queen will cross any amount of comb to get to the drone comb so she can lay drones.
There is no issue with drone comb being used for honey, as Michael said, but if the bees are on foundation and are restricted in the amount of drones they are allowed to raise, any space where they can draw freely they will probably put drone brood in, not honey. If you are foundationless and let the bees maintain some drone brood, this is less of a problem, since they aren't gunning to make drone brood at the first opportunity.
OK, my hives came with plastic foundation in wooden frames. The medium foundation is yellow and the deep is black. Will the patterns on the foundation define the size of the comb that they attach to it or will they make it whatever dimensions the deem to suit their needs?
Quote from: Terri Yaki on January 29, 2024, 10:56:49 AM
Will the patterns on the foundation define the size of the comb that they attach to it or will they make it whatever dimensions the deem to suit their needs?
Oh yes. That's one of the reasons I am foundationless. I prefer to let them do whatever they want with cell size and where they'd like to put worker comb, drone comb, and honey comb.
>Will the patterns on the foundation define the size of the comb that they attach to it or will they make it whatever dimensions the deem to suit their needs?
Yes. It will set the cell size. The bees will very seldom change the size of plastic foundation. They have to be desperate for drones to redo worker sized cells into drones.
Years ago I made my own foundation by casting wax into a silicone mould that was made from plastic foundation. The cell size from memory was about 5.3mm. At one point in time I wanted to informally test the drawing of this cast foundation compared to normally rolled, commercial foundation. A few supers were filled with a combination of both types of foundation for the test. After about a week the frames were checked. Both types of foundation were drawn out quite well with the homemade foundation showing slightly better results. This was pleasing from my perspective but as the test was very small it didn?t prove anything except that the bees had no problems drawing the cast wax. That?s all I wanted to know. The interesting thing that I did observe was that the cell walls in the cast foundation were slightly thicker than the commercial foundation. It?s funny how bees adapt to suit their needs. We often forget this when we talk about these little critters.
A few days ago I saw an image of a comb honey mini frame that used foundation strips rather than filling the whole area. It took me about 2 minutes to copy and paste one of my current designs and modify it to take foundation strips top and bottom. It?s definitely another good option for comb production.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 29, 2024, 06:48:36 PM
A few days ago I saw an image of a comb honey mini frame that used foundation strips rather than filling the whole area. It took me about 2 minutes to copy and paste one of my current designs and modify it to take foundation strips top and bottom. It?s definitely another good option for comb production.
Nice work! In the US they're called Basswood sections. A starter strip and they come out great.
https://meyerbees.com/product/comb-honey-super-kit-with-basswood-section-boxes/
Kelley beekeeping used to make those basswood sections. I have some that I got at an auction of a retired beekeeper. They are pretty cool but they are expensive. I don't think kelley's offers them any more since mann lake bought them.
I really like your design les.
There are quite a few variations on the same theme out there and they generally look similar and should all work when conditions are right. I have been making them using small sheets of plywood and the unit cost has ended up being 37 cents. You guys in America would buy plywood much cheaper than what I can and would therefore have a cheaper product. If I buy a full sheet of 3mm ply, the cost drops to about 27 cents. I?ve made enough frames and timber comb sections to fill a deep. It will cost about $30 in materials to make the 80 frames. The adjustable frames ended up costing me about $90 for the 10 that I made but this is a one off cost. Buying materials in bulk would obviously bring that cost down. Selling 8 frames of comb honey would cover my costs. The other 72 would be the cream. In reality, not every mini frame is a saleable item but in a good flow, about 90% should look the part. A bit of frame manipulation also helps to keep the comb flat and even as it is drawn.
The tee nuts that I ordered arrived yesterday which enabled all of the frames to be assembled. You may notice that wing nuts are used to tension the adjustable frames. This works for me as I currently make comb in the top super and use migratory lids. If I ever need to reduce the space taken up by the wing nuts, they could be replaced with slim line hex nuts. Bee access is available from all directions. Bees can move freely from top to bottom and side to side. This should help to keep comb building reasonably consistent. I would expect to move frames 1,2,9 and 10 during the comb building process to help maintain uniformity and help to keep the quality of the comb at a high standard. Although not essential during a strong flow, this method does keep partially capped or poorly shaped combs to a minimum.
If you look in the old bee magazines back in the late 1800s there is a hive called the Heddon hive. It's first interesting feature is that there is a frame inside the frame that pivots so you can turn the combs upside down. This was done to prevent swarming. The other thing it had was that the box was reversible. This was accomplished by a screw that pushes towards the center from the outside frame so that the frames where crammed together and you could flip the entire box upside down. Maybe some of that could help with what you're trying to do. This was just two screws that pushed the frames together instead of a bolt on each one.
"Turn the combs upside down"
Interesting!
Years ago, when i used to do cuouts we used to put capped brood into frames upsode down.
generally the queen would not place eggs into these frames after to brood hatched - meaning you could take the frame sout and replace it with a frame with foundation
The theory of the Heddon hive's reversible boxes and reversible frames was that every time you reversed them the bees would rearrange the brood box, the swarm cells would be upside down, the band of honey at the top of the frames was at the bottom etc. By the time they rearranged it all, you reversed it again. It would probably work for Varroa control as a Russian invention has proved by slowly rotating the combs. I was just thinking it might serve the same purpose of holding things together that the wing nuts were doing in lesgold's arrangement.
The other theory of Heddon's was that you could use smaller boxes (his were about the size of an eight frame medium) and manage the hive "by the box".
I think the only thing about upside down comb that lends towards the queen not laying in them is preference. Bees have preferences, but they will use whatever is available. They can even put honey in cells sloped the wrong way. I've watched them do it in my observation hive.
That is so interesting Michael. It really gets the old brain ticking over. It also generates so many questions as to how the bees coped and what they would actually do in that situation. Would they uncap honey and move it up? What about uncapped honey? Would that create a mess in the hive as it ran down the frame onto the bottom board? Perhaps in our modern world the SHB would be thanking Heddon for his design. It would be really interesting to hear about this design in relation to varroa and how it could possibly impact their life cycle. Thanks again for posting this idea. Max, your approach to cut outs gets a thumbs up. I have only done a few in the early days and found it to be a messy and time consuming job. Your idea of reversing the comb was really thinking outside the box. I wish I had thought of that at the time. It would have definitely saved time in the long run.
Michael wrote:
I think the only thing about upside down comb that lends towards the queen not laying in them is preference. Bees have preferences, but they will use whatever is available. They can even put honey in cells sloped the wrong way. I've watched them do it in my observation hive.
I wonder if this a timing issue?
I found I was able to take our messy bits and pieces of foundation out BEFORE the queen was tempted to use the empty cells again.
I do think that it is a preferance thing - the preferance being normal sloping cells.
It?s finally time to start preparing for some comb honey production. Last year was a disaster as far as honey goes. Basically no nectar came in at all so any thoughts of making some of the yummy, sticky stuff had to be put on the back burner. We have a tree called ironbark that produces a beautiful , light honey and the bees drag in copious amounts of nectar when the flow is on. Looks like it will start anytime soon with just the very odd tree starting to flower. Today was spent preparing some foundation to use in the comb sections. About 20 sheets of very thin foundation were made from some of my cappings wax. As you can see from the photo, the wax was almost translucent. I spent some time experimenting with techniques to secure the flimsy foundation to the comb sections and finally decided to utilise a technique that I had been using in the past. Once the foundation was cut and fitted, small blobs of liquid wax were applied to a few spots around perimeter of the foundation to secure it to the frames. This box of frames will be added to a hive in a week or two.
I have a single hive at mates place about 5km from home. He wanted bees for pollination but it is also in a position where good nectar can come in. At the moment, an early flow has started. The hive is pumping along and is getting quite large. Pulled a nuc off it a few days ago and have to pull some honey today as the bees are starting to build comb in the lid. I will add a queen excluder and also some mini comb frames that I made over 12 months ago. Added the thin foundation to the frames yesterday. Here is the method I use.
A template is used as a guide to cut the foundation to the correct size. A pizza cutter cuts out each rectangle of thin foundation. The frame is then placed of a simple jig. The block in the centre of the frame sits at the half way position, acting as a location guide for the foundation. The foundation is then placed in the approximate seating location.
A press block then pushes the foundation into the correct location. You can see from the previous photo that the foundation is fractionally larger than the available space. A small paint brush is used to quickly apply some molten wax to a few locations to secure the foundation to the frame. Although it doesn?t look great, the bees move some of this wax around as they draw out the comb. The box is now ready to add to the hive.
Quote from: Lesgold on October 21, 2024, 04:37:03 AM
It?s finally time to start preparing for some comb honey production. Last year was a disaster as far as honey goes. Basically no nectar came in at all so any thoughts of making some of the yummy, sticky stuff had to be put on the back burner. We have a tree called ironbark that produces a beautiful , light honey and the bees drag in copious amounts of nectar when the flow is on. Looks like it will start anytime soon with just the very odd tree starting to flower. Today was spent preparing some foundation to use in the comb sections. About 20 sheets of very thin foundation were made from some of my cappings wax. As you can see from the photo, the wax was almost translucent. I spent some time experimenting with techniques to secure the flimsy foundation to the comb sections and finally decided to utilise a technique that I had been using in the past. Once the foundation was cut and fitted, small blobs of liquid wax were applied to a few spots around perimeter of the foundation to secure it to the frames. This box of frames will be added to a hive in a week or two.
I hope this works out in your favor Les. Keep up the good work and ideas! Thumbs up!
Phillip
Thanks Phillip. I?ll keep you guys posted as to how these small frames go. The secret to getting good comb honey is having a strong hive on a good honey flow. I have both conditions at the moment but the flow is only just beginning. The bees will draw the centre frames first which means a little bit of frame manipulation to ensure good comb shape. If I put the comb honey super on a little later, this frame movement wouldn?t be required. I?m just trying to take advantage of the limited time and possibly get some more comb honey produced. This is a very popular product around Xmas time.
Thanks Les, too bad we are not neighbors. No doubt we would have a good time. Isn?t it wonderful that beemaster forums is the next best thing to next door neighbors!
Phillip
I?m sure we would have lots to talk about. As it?s stands, we are almost neighbours anyway. It?s only 14500km in a straight line. If you were to shout, I could almost hear you.
Quote from: Lesgold on October 22, 2024, 10:48:13 PM
I?m sure we would have lots to talk about. As it?s stands, we are almost neighbours anyway. It?s only 14500km in a straight line. If you were to shout, I could almost hear you.
:grin: