Can anyone here who is familiar with the OTS method of queen rearing answer this question. I can only guess. As I have already guessed in trying to help Bob Wilson. I took it that Bob was basically asking the question, 'what is the difference in removing the queen to generate 'emergency' cells than that of the OTS method.' I made a guess at the difference and only a guess as follows.
'Maybe' the difference is' the queen does not have to be removed and the bees will be stimulated into thinking they need to produce 'supersedure' cells? (from the notches only?) preventing having 'emergency queen cells' all over the place when the queen is removed. Adding: also, the queen can continue to lay as usual, without interruption as this is happening.
The question is, is this correct?:
Could it be with the OTS the only new Queen Cells will be found where the notches have been made on 'the frame' and 'accepted as superseder cells' by the hive?
Thanks
Phillip
I think the only real difference that the OTS method has is the notching of the cells. And really all that does is it allows for a more vertical queen cell and favors those cells notched for queen rearing. The bees need to fix that comb anyway so since the bees are there they can build queen cells. I'm sure that in a big hive there will be some queen cells everywhere possible. I have pulled a queen from a large hive. Came back a week later with over 25 cells. In the OTS method you still remove the queen so the cells are not supercedure cells.
The only way that I know of to get the bees to raise queen cells while the queen is still in the hive is to pull a frame with eggs and put it above the honey barrier. Far enough away from the brood nest that the nurse bees taking care of that frame think that they are queenless and therefore produce queen cells. You could notch that frame if you wanted to.
All that cao said and one can mark the frame that has the eggs you chose and hopefully the bees also. Need JTMedic to check in, he uses it a lot.
Well https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf (https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf)in ots the queen and 2frames of capped cells are removed and placed with one open , 1 feed and one pollen frame. Nuc made
The large colony that remains I check and knock down any swarm cells and then notch 2 spots on Identify 4‐5 cells containing 36‐hour‐or‐younger larvae on all 6 frames of brood. As you locate these cells on each frame, break the bottom one‐third of the cell wall to the midrib of the comb. I do this and put them back for 7 days then check for queen cells. If making nucs I cull all but 2 queen cells( the best looking ones) on frame and try to keep them on the same side and make my nucs. If keeping my production hive in tact keep the best 2 queen cells and cull the rest.
It is a great book. Will be reading it again. It has helped me out grow my wooden ware and need to buy more but I will say all my splits I sold this year to friends have done extremely well and since applying the ots approach my honey and bees making have been increased.
Thanks all. I was 'guessing' the 'advantage' of OTS is what I stated above, the queen could remain in the hive, just an in a 'natural supersedure situation', and the notching was the key to sparkling this mode with the queen intact, while she would continue conducting business as usual. I am glad I ask and I appreciate all your help in clearing this up.
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 29, 2022, 05:08:45 PM
Thanks all. I was 'guessing' the 'advantage' of OTS is what I stated above, the queen could remain in the hive, just an in a 'natural supersedure situation', and the notching was the key to sparkling this mode with the queen intact, while she would continue conducting business as usual. I am glad I ask and I appreciate all your help in clearing this up.
Phillip
Watch OTS Queen Rearing - Never Buy Bees Again on YT. The presenter does an excellent job at explaining OTS. You dont leave the queen in the colony that you notch. If I'm going to leave the queen in the same hive I started a graft, notched or left queen cells etc., I put her above the honey supers (3 or 4) and the started queen cells below. The OTS method would be great for someone like Bob who does not want to graft yet. I think he will be disappointed with the method he decided on as it seems he wants to grow his apiary not just raise a few queens.
You can do a lot of splits from it if you have drawn comb. And feed,That is the key I went from 14 to 40 with 10 extra nucs that this fall all went to doubles before our winter. I will be doing it again this year but keeping honey production my main focus and only planning on selling 10 nucs to locals but will see what happens with 40
Wow! That is real progress jtcmedic. Thanks also beesnweeds from your and Jtcmedics' report. Bob should be pleased! I will check out the video.
Phillip
I think I just found it beesnweeds, by John Schwartz, correct?
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 29, 2022, 06:54:22 PM
I think I just found it beesnweeds, by John Schwartz, correct?
Phillip
Thats the one.
I Used OTS In Queen rearing... By using notch in the cell... And then I used a Cloake board.. I believe Michael Bush calls on a floor without a floor.. I did raise a lot of queens this way... About 30 to 50 per year...
Dadant & Son's bee supply in the USA sell Cloake board You can find them in the catalog..
In the 2021 catalog It is on page 64.. Catalog number is B41301
The instructions used to come with the order.... Also Michael Bush had them published on his website at 1 time..
Hear is one way to do it... I found is on YouTube..
https://youtu.be/NFDNTly2sMg
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Hi Jim 134, We were just talking about a subject last September and October on a topic that had been revived from 2010. To your credit you had made some good replies on that subject of splits and queen rearing way back then, (2010), Topic: "Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"?" :
There we took up the discussion of the Snelgrove/double screen dividing board. I will watch your video to see how the cloak board works in compairson.
Thanks,
Phillip
QuoteWell https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdfin ots the queen and 2frames of capped cells are removed and placed with one open , 1 feed and one pollen frame. Nuc made
The large colony that remains I check and knock down any swarm cells and then notch 2 spots on Identify 4‐5 cells containing 36‐hour‐or‐younger larvae on all 6 frames of brood
JTMedic,
I may be obtuse here, overlook it, please...
Why tear down swarm cells, just to notch and have the bees make more? It seems to me, that if a hive is strong enough to swarm, there are usually several big, well fed, high quality cells available. More than are needed even if the entire hive's resources were divided up into nucs.
Unless OTS is about raising an excess of QCs, or creating cells on our own time table, rather than trying to time a forced swarm.
It is to make sure it on your time frame, and if they swarm that is lost resources and honey. Also tearing down only 2 cell make it so there is not a battle royal of queens and decrease chance to successful mating
Quote from: jtcmedic on January 30, 2022, 12:47:33 PM
It is to make sure it on your time frame, and if they swarm that is lost resources and honey.
Exactly! There's nothing wrong with making up a few nucs with swarm cells but you dont get the control and resources like JT does with OTS. Thats why he is able to make so many colonies.
Quote from: Bob Wilson on January 30, 2022, 09:12:54 AM
Why tear down swarm cells, just to notch and have the bees make more? It seems to me, that if a hive is strong enough to swarm, there are usually several big, well fed, high quality cells available.
If you notch, graft, or any other type of queen rearing during swarm season you will get quality queens.
Quote from: Bob Wilson on January 30, 2022, 09:12:54 AM
Why tear down swarm cells, just to notch and have the bees make more? It seems to me, that if a hive is strong enough to swarm, there are usually several big, well fed, high quality cells available.
Playing devils advocate :smile:....why would you want to breed future queens from a hive that is showing characteristics (swarming) you don't probably don't want in your bee yard/apiary?
Although I totally agree if you have swarm cells then you can't get much better queen cells. The problem I find from here is getting these queen cells accepted in other queenless nucs/Apidea's etc. Any tips gratefully accepted in this area.
Quotecao
I have pulled a queen from a large hive. Came back a week later with over 25 cells. In the OTS method you still remove the queen so the cells are not supercedure cells.
The OTS method sounds fun and interesting though we have established that supersedure cells can not be enticed to be raised with the queen intact, even with notching. Correct?
Back to Bob; If I am understanding Bob correctly, he Is seeking to build nucs. If he decides to choose either the OTS method or simply 'pull the queen' as cao described above, 'both' will produce 'emergency cells' because of the absence of their queen? Is that correct? If so neither method will produce swarm cells or supersedure cells, but emergency cells?
Cao stated; "I have pulled a queen from a large hive. Came back a week later with over 25 cells". If Bob can experience the success that cao has had on simply pulling the queen on a 'strong' hive, he should hypothetically, be able to raise all the queens he needs doing the same thing, making all the splits he might need, (which his rescues will allow)?
Phillip
Perhaps this might clear it up for me, also.
When we (OTS) notch some viable egg cells in a hive after removing the queen to a nuc, does the hive tend to make QCs only on those notched cells, or in many/various other places like a swarm prepping hive?
Adding more food for thought:
If we place the queen above the set up, whether OTS or simply 'pull the queen' method, we can place a double screen dividing board on top of our existing hive adding the original queen and crew here in waiting, letting her continue laying with the entourage we have provided her (on top).
When all new queen cells are retrieved, leaving no more below, we can simply remove the double screen dividing board, allowing the queen to immediately go back to laying in the lower brood camber and in four days redo the same process again with the same hive? The added advantage of the DSDB would be a big booster shot for the program?
This would kind of go along with caos' thoughts..
Quotecao
The only way that I know of to get the bees to raise queen cells while the queen is still in the hive is to pull a frame with eggs and put it above the honey barrier. Far enough away from the brood nest that the nurse bees taking care of that frame think that they are queenless and therefore produce queen cells.
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 30, 2022, 04:43:49 PM
If we place the queen above the set up, whether OTS or simply 'pull the queen' method, we can place a double screen dividing board on top of our existing hive adding the original queen and crew here in waiting, letting her continue laying with the entourage we have provided her (on top).
No need for a double screen dividing board, just a QE will do.
Quote from: Bob Wilson on January 30, 2022, 03:35:39 PM
Perhaps this might clear it up for me, also.
When we (OTS) notch some viable egg cells in a hive after removing the queen to a nuc, does the hive tend to make QCs only on those notched cells, or in many/various other places like a swarm prepping hive?
they will make them at the notches and at other spots, wherever the alpha bees choose the larva.0
Quote from: jtcmedic on January 30, 2022, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Bob Wilson on January 30, 2022, 03:35:39 PM
Perhaps this might clear it up for me, also.
When we (OTS) notch some viable egg cells in a hive after removing the queen to a nuc, does the hive tend to make QCs only on those notched cells, or in many/various other places like a swarm prepping hive?
they will make them at the notches and at other spots, wherever the alpha bees choose the larva.0
The bees will make queen cells where they want, but if you notch they will make more sell in that area depending on where you notch. I have notched up to 4 times on one frame and ended with up to 6+ cells in all notches. It will very be depending on what the bees want, but it can be very successful.
>>>>> 'both' will produce 'emergency cells' because of the absence of their queen? Is that correct? If so neither method will produce swarm cells or supersedure cells, but emergency cells?
Imho the search for having bees make supercedure cells is a waste of time. Those cells are made when everything looks normal in a hive except the bees want to replace the queen. It it not very often that a beekeeper comes across them. One or two cells in a full hive can easily be missed. All other queen cells are either swarm cells(made with queen still in hive) or emergency cells(made with no queen in hive). So even grafted queen cells could be considered emergency cells. Basically imho a queen cell is a queen cell no matter why or how it was made.
>>>>>If we place the queen above the set up, whether OTS or simply 'pull the queen' method, we can place a double screen dividing board on top of our existing hive adding the original queen and crew here in waiting, letting her continue laying with the entourage we have provided her (on top).
Instead of moving the queen to the top, just move the frame or frames that you want to notch to the top(a lot less work). As long as there is enough separation from the brood nest(and queen) then the bees will produce queen cells. Using a queen excluder, double screen board or just a super of capped honey will all work.
QuoteCao
Imho the search for having bees make supercedure cells is a waste of time. Those cells are made when everything looks normal in a hive except the bees want to replace the queen. It it not very often that a beekeeper comes across them. One or two cells in a full hive can easily be missed. All other queen cells are either swarm cells(made with queen still in hive) or emergency cells(made with no queen in hive). So even grafted queen cells could be considered emergency cells. Basically imho a queen cell is a queen cell no matter why or how it was made.
I agree. We know the bees will produce queen cells in a hive during a superseder with the queen 'present'. All these questions that I have ask along with starting this topic was searching for some distinct advantage of Notching Vs simply removing the queen as per Bobs first question on another topic: "Beginner Splitter Hives": reply:8
The only real advantage that might have been plain to me via Notching was the hope of leaving the queen in the brood chamber while using the notch method, creating a superseder circumstance with pinpointed located of specialized queen cells. Since the answer is no to all of this, I must sympathize with Bobs original question and opinion. I see no real advantage of this than simply removing the queen, allowing the bees to pick and chose the cells to be developed into queens than that of Notching, since in notching the queen will still have to be removed anyway and still new cells will be developed anywhere the bees choose.
I am not knocking notching and I can see where it will bring pleasure to those who pursue it; but advantage, I just don't see it.... No harm meant as there is always more than one way to skin the cat. Preference is with the individual.
Phillip
Quotecao
Instead of moving the queen to the top, just move the frame or frames that you want to notch to the top(a lot less work).
Yes it will and I like it! Thanks cao. As I can see where a DSDB or super of honey will work, but not a QE.
Quotebeesnweeds
No need for a double screen dividing board, just a QE will do.
Quotecao
As long as there is enough separation from the brood nest(and queen) then the bees will produce queen cells. Using a queen excluder, double screen board or just a super of capped honey will all work.
Consider, in early Spring we may not have a honey barrier in between the brood area and new area for the queen, and in this case that is just what we are talking about, 'early spring' as I am sure Bob wants to get off to the races ASAP. If so, a simple QE may not be enough to start the emergency situation in the hive? This new box will simply be an extension of the brood area with only a queen excluder in-between, allowing pheromones continually transfered by nurse bees back and forth.
If so, a QE in-between will not stop the transfer of those pheromones and no emergency cells will be built? That is a function and a purpose of the DSDB; To separate 'via touch' the transfer of queen pheromones by the nurse bees to the area of the queen? Once this transfer of pheromones are stopped by contact, the queen cells will begin. As you stated a honey barrier will work as a DSDB and for the same reasons. But a QE alone in the new area placed 'directly' above the top brood chamber will be no more than a new brood box area?
Thanks,
Phillip
Sorry, we are not on the same page. I was replying to your comment of placing the queen above the supers. All you need is one QE. The bees below will raise a queen.
Quote from: beesnweeds on January 31, 2022, 02:09:03 PM
Sorry, we are not on the same page. I was replying to your comment of placing the queen above the supers. All you need is one QE. The bees below will raise a queen.
My appoliges to you beesnweeds, I did not mean supers, I meant the new set up and used the words set up in reply 19, but looking back that was not a very clear description on my part and I can 'easily' see how this got confused. It is my fault for not being more clear in my beginning explanation. Thanks for clearing the air and pointing this out. I may have confused others as well.. Good job!
Phillip
I am a firm believer in the double screenboard. As I stated in a different post I dont leave home without one. Back to notching. If thats your gig, do it. I personally see no real advantage though. But if someone can explain the advantages, and the time involved outweighs the time involved just using a double screenboard I would give it a try.