I've been reading and hearing recently about people roughing up the interiors of their boxes to encourage the bees to coat the walls of the hive with propolis, like wild colonies do in tree cavities, the idea being that the colony's health is benefited by the anti-microbial properties of the propolis. Has anyone tried this? If so, what did you use to rough up the boxes? Did you notice any differences in colony health?
In my opinion just a bunch of busy work.. Bees are going to propolis anyway.. No matter if the surface is Rough or Smooth.
BEE HAPPY Jim134 :smile:
I was given a few boxes that had the insides painted which I didn't like. I used a belt sander with a 80 grit belt to grind most of the paint off. I'm not sure if the bees even cared if the inside of the box was painted or raw wood. They had them coated with propolis by the end of the season.
15. Doesn't it seem, with the amount that the bees already gunk up the frames, the frame rests, the lid, the entrance and everything else, that there is already plenty of propolis, negating the need for extra work?
All my full size hives are store bought. When I decided to get into overwintering nucs I didnt like the commercial boxes and made my own 5 over 5 nucs, 10 years ago. A local mill makes 1 x 12 rough cut boards that worked out nicely. Bees do coat the inside with more propolis but I dont see any difference in health between them and commercial hives. I also have read some articles that stated more propolis is healthier. Im not convinced but it certainly doesnt hurt in any way.
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 03, 2022, 07:31:46 PM
In my opinion just a bunch of busy work.. Bees are going to propolis anyway.. No matter if the surface is Rough or Smooth.
Ditto. For both the beekeeper and the bees.
Someone is going to have to show me some real proof that it helps before I am going to spend time doing it. Seems that it is newer beekeepers doing it from what I read.
So the overarching feeling seems to be that it's not worth the time/the bees will propolise the walls either way. I guess I'm wondering how much propolis is enough to constitute an envelope. For example in Tom Seeley's book "The Lives of Bees" he says, "The walls inside a bee tree are coated with tree resins that make them shiny and waterproof, whereas the walls of a bee hive--even one used for years and years--have no such coating, so they usually look as dull and porous as freshly paned boards." I have found, as many of you have by the way you are talking, that statement not to be entirely accurate, as after a year or two the interior of my brood boxes become darkened from propolis applied to the walls in some small amount. So is that enough propolis for them to benefit from it? I don't know, and probably no one does.
I have a few boxes that I bought from a guy who makes them locally with his own wood from his own mill, and his boxes are much rougher than the boxes from the big companies, and my bees put more propolis on the walls of these boxes than they do on the super smooth commercial ones. Basically I'm looking for a way to rough up the walls of the smooth boxes so they are more like the rougher ones, or even rougher than that.
New boxes eventually get "seasoned" like a cooking pan. After a couple of years, the insides are glossy, golden, and slick. When they're rinsed out during maintenance (example: late winter if the colony contracted, and there's mildew in an unused edge) then the garden hose nozzle's "jet" setting will rinse it right off. Lay in the sun to dry.
Some colonies appear to make more propolis than others. Perhaps switching/rotating boxes can evenly coat all.
I stopped saving the propolis from the side of the frames. When I inspect, I hold the frame steady on the worktable or lid, balancing on the corner and scrape with my hive tool. Otherwise I can't fit all 10 frames back in the box...too much goo between frame tops.
I'll throw the propolis in the screened bottom (obviously while frames are out...) so they can put it somewhere else, or throw it out ... but probably put it right back from where I scraped it away.
A few years ago I made some boxes from recycled cypress pine flooring boards. The boards were rough sawn on the underside. Those boxes are fully propolised on the inside and are quite shiny. No other boxes have been treated this way by the bees. Not sure if it was the rough surface or the strong, oily smell of this timber. I have never really thought much about it except to say that the smell of the timber is gone and the bees are happy. I can?t ask for any more than that. If there are other advantages to the propolised surface, that?s a bonus. Bees tend to behave in a manner that?s beneficial to the health of their hive so your thoughts are definitely worth consideration.
Cheers
Les
I was talking to my mom and sister about it, and my sister has an old rasp that she uses for trimming goat hooves that she'd like to replace, so I may give that a try. It's one of those things where I'd just like to do everything I can to help with the bees' health, and this absolutely cannot hurt. I'll probably do a couple boxes and use them for a split and see what happens.
The scientist in you must be allowed to do its thing! :grin: I am interested in your experiment Reagan. Keep up updated.
Phillip
If it's a question which can only be answered by trying it then give it a try. Any piece of information gleaned will be worth it instead of wondering for years would it of worked.
In other words give it a try, it can't hurt and you will learn something. ;)
Quote from: Ben Framed on April 04, 2022, 08:52:46 PM
The scientist in you must be allowed to do its thing! :grin: I am interested in your experiment Reagan. Keep up updated.
Phillip
Quote from: Beeboy01 on April 05, 2022, 10:45:05 AM
If it's a question which can only be answered by trying it then give it a try. Any piece of information gleaned will be worth it instead of wondering for years would it of worked.
In other words give it a try, it can't hurt and you will learn something. ;)
I will, and I'll let you know what happens. I'm very curious to find out. :happy:
Sounds like a make-work project to me. Honestly, best to save yourself the bother and put your valuable time to other much more impactful bee-stuff. IMHO.
My bees seem to apply a thin coating of propolis and wax to the walls of the box without any extra work on my part. The critical coaxing factor is colony strength. A box full enough of bees that the cluster is living and working at the walls. Meaning wall2wall bees. If the cluster is small not touching the walls, they don't do much to them until they need to be working out there.
Also of importance. Producing propolis is a genetic trait which commercially has been undesirable and is actively suppressed in breeding selection. Meaning most of the bees bought out there inherently make very little to no propolis, regardless. So, best to know if that is the case with your bees before getting too concerned about whether they are making it or not. You may be hoping/expecting them to do something that they just are not inclined nor capable of genetically.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 05, 2022, 02:07:48 PM
Sounds like a make-work project to me. Honestly, best to save yourself the bother and put your valuable time to other much more impactful bee-stuff. IMHO.
My bees seem to apply a thin coating of propolis and wax to the walls of the box without any extra work on my part. The critical coaxing factor is colony strength. A box full enough of bees that the cluster is living and working at the walls. Meaning wall2wall bees. If the cluster is small not touching the walls, they don't do much to them until they need to be working out there.
Also of importance. Producing propolis is a genetic trait which commercially has been undesirable and is actively suppressed in breeding selection. Meaning most of the bees bought out there inherently make very little to no propolis, regardless. So, best to know if that is the case with your bees before getting too concerned about whether they are making it or not. You may be hoping/expecting them to do something that they just are not inclined nor capable of genetically.
Hope that helps.
I'm aware that propolis production is influenced by genetics, and if it's something the bees aren't interested in doing, then that's fine with me too. I'd just like to give them the opportunity and see if they take it or not. If roughing up the boxes is all it takes, I have few enough hives that the time spent is worth it to me, especially if it's beneficial to their health. Thanks, HP, and everyone else, for responding.
Quote from: The15thMember on April 04, 2022, 08:20:02 PM
I was talking to my mom and sister about it, and my sister has an old rasp that she uses for trimming goat hooves that she'd like to replace, so I may give that a try.
Unless you have had a lot of time and practice with a file it will be difficult to do the center of the boards. The easiest way and the fastest way is with a belt sander #50 grit belt cross grain. Light pressure or you will tear into the boards.
Quote from: Beeboy01 on April 05, 2022, 10:45:05 AM
If it's a question which can only be answered by trying it then give it a try.
The trouble is you cannot draw a conclusion from a few samples.
Quote from: Acebird on April 05, 2022, 04:45:40 PM
Unless you have had a lot of time and practice with a file it will be difficult to do the center of the boards. The easiest way and the fastest way is with a belt sander #50 grit belt cross grain. Light pressure or you will tear into the boards.
Thanks, I'll try that if I have trouble with the file.
Quote from: Acebird on April 05, 2022, 04:47:40 PM
The trouble is you cannot draw a conclusion from a few samples.
I can draw even fewer conclusions from not trying at all. :wink: I'm not trying to settle these questions for all time, I'm just experimenting with my bees and what works for them at my location.
Quote from: The15thMember on April 05, 2022, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: Acebird on April 05, 2022, 04:47:40 PM
The trouble is you cannot draw a conclusion from a few samples.
I can draw even fewer conclusions from not trying at all. :wink:
This isn't true either. If you spoke with several commercial beekeepers that have had thousands of hives in their career under all kinds of conditions you could draw a more accurate conclusion. At least one has already posted. If you do your test and make a conclusion you have a 50/50 chance of getting it right. Another avenue you could pursue is to consult an entomologist or books written by entomologists and get a better chance of getting it right. Many hobbyist conduct these "tests" that are not tests at all because they don't have the background and knowledge to conduct any test.
Most smart people get smarter from other peoples efforts.
Quote from: Acebird on April 06, 2022, 07:40:34 AM
This isn't true either. If you spoke with several commercial beekeepers that have had thousands of hives in their career under all kinds of conditions you could draw a more accurate conclusion. At least one has already posted. If you do your test and make a conclusion you have a 50/50 chance of getting it right. Another avenue you could pursue is to consult an entomologist or books written by entomologists and get a better chance of getting it right. Many hobbyist conduct these "tests" that are not tests at all because they don't have the background and knowledge to conduct any test.
Most smart people get smarter from other peoples efforts.
You mean like these? :cheesy:
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Ace, I think you are one of those people who believes that science can only be done by people with a degree. The truth is science is only making observations and drawing useful conclusions from them, something that many people do every day. It's true, with only a handful of hives over the course of a single season, my conclusions aren't very meaningful, and they certainly aren't meaningful for anyone except me and my bees, as there are too many variables to accurately discern anything wide-ranging. But say for the next 10 years I have some of my boxes roughed up and some of them smooth, and over that time I observe noticeable differences between the various colonies, then I could draw a meaningful conclusion, even though it would still only apply to me and my bees and not to anyone else.
If someone would take the time to do a comprehensive research study on this, then yes, that would be the most helpful, to me and to everyone. But it hasn't been done yet, and until it is, I'm going to work with what I've got, which is the knowledge (gained from reading comprehensive research studies) that colonies with more propolis generally have less trouble with certain diseases than colonies with less propolis.
Quote from: The15thMember on April 06, 2022, 12:01:58 PM
You mean like these? :cheesy:
Yes and no.
It would have to be books that talked about propolise and how much of a effect rough wood would induce the bees to secret more propolise above and beyond what they would do if the wood was smooth. And then does it make a measurable difference. I don't see that as an easy test.
QuoteThe truth is science is only making observations and drawing useful conclusions from them,
No not even close. Science is proving your conclusions are right based on what you observed.
I could conclude that my bees are sick because I observed them doing a shaky thing on the landing board. You know this would be a wrong conclusion. Don't you? The thing is many beekeepers do observations and come up with totally wrong conclusions because they think what they observed proves what they believe they are seeing.
Go ahead and do your experiments for the fun of it. I don't want to discourage experimentation. But be very careful about unproven conclusions.
QuoteI'm going to work with what I've got, which is the knowledge (gained from reading comprehensive research studies) that colonies with more propolis generally have less trouble with certain diseases than colonies with less propolis.
You should also read some books about genetics because it is a genetic trait. It might send you off in another direction being that some races of bees have better survival traits. And then of course are your bees mutts or purebred?
Quote from: Acebird on April 06, 2022, 04:00:29 PM
No not even close. Science is proving your conclusions are right based on what you observed.
Perhaps I'm nitpicking, but this sounds dangerously backwards to me, and I think a lot of bad science stems from this statement. In many cases, false "facts" can be found to support a conclusion. It's that old "Light Bulbs are Really Dark Suckers" story, which is here if you are unfamiliar with it: https://www.ise.ufl.edu/capehart/darksuck.html Theories should be made to fit the facts, not facts to fit the theories. Observations generate facts, which are compiled into a theory, which is either useful or not useful, based on whether it can make predictions about similar situations in the future. (Some would use the words "right/wrong" or "correct/incorrect" instead of "useful/not useful", but I prefer the latter, since our understanding of the universe evolves over time, and only scientific
laws are considered immutably true.)
Quote from: Acebird on April 06, 2022, 04:00:29 PM
I could conclude that my bees are sick because I observed them doing a shaky thing on the landing board. You know this would be a wrong conclusion. Don't you? The thing is many beekeepers do observations and come up with totally wrong conclusions because they think what they observed proves what they believe they are seeing.
It could be wrong. They could be shaking because they are waggle dancing, or they could be shaking because they were poisoned. The trouble with this situation isn't the conclusion, it's the lack of sufficient observation. You are going off of one fact "The bees are shaking", and drawing a conclusion from that alone. This will, as you said, inevitably lead to a useless conclusion, as bees shake for many reasons, and next time they are shaking, they still may or may not be sick.
Quote from: Acebird on April 06, 2022, 04:00:29 PM
And then of course are your bees mutts or purebred?
They are just local mutts. And I haven't the faintest idea where my group of usurpers came from, but I'd doubt they are purebred.
Reagan, I encourage you to continue with this idea and see where it takes you. The beauty about being hobby beekeepers is that we don?t have to rely on our bees for income. We are just on a journey of fun and learning. If something comes out of your experimentation that is interesting or worthy of further investigation, that?s great. If the propolis experiment doesn?t provide an outcome that warrants deeper study, that?s also fine. All you have given up is a little bit of time. Please keep everyone posted on your findings.
Regan,
I have always believed in the Dark Sucker theory, but never been able to convince my wife even though the evidence was right before her eyes. Thank you so much for posting this. Now, seeing this in writing, "proven" by educated people, maybe she will finally believe that light bulbs suck up the darkness. Now back to the thread.
Quote from: Lesgold on April 07, 2022, 12:02:47 AM
Reagan, I encourage you to continue with this idea and see where it takes you. The beauty about being hobby beekeepers is that we don?t have to rely on our bees for income. We are just on a journey of fun and learning. If something comes out of your experimentation that is interesting or worthy of further investigation, that?s great. If the propolis experiment doesn?t provide an outcome that warrants deeper study, that?s also fine. All you have given up is a little bit of time. Please keep everyone posted on your findings.
Totally agreed Les. Keep up the good work Reagan!
👍🏻Phillip
Quote from: jimineycricket on April 07, 2022, 11:01:35 AM
Regan,
I have always believed in the Dark Sucker theory, but never been able to convince my wife even though the evidence was right before her eyes. Thank you so much for posting this. Now, seeing this in writing, "proven" by educated people, maybe she will finally believe that light bulbs suck up the darkness. Now back to the thread.
You are quite welcome, Jimmy. Hopefully now your wife will "see the light" on this subject, as it were. :wink: :cheesy: It's like I always say, you if you find it on the internet, you
know it's true. :cheesy:
Quote from: Ben Framed on April 07, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: Lesgold on April 07, 2022, 12:02:47 AM
Reagan, I encourage you to continue with this idea and see where it takes you. The beauty about being hobby beekeepers is that we don?t have to rely on our bees for income. We are just on a journey of fun and learning. If something comes out of your experimentation that is interesting or worthy of further investigation, that?s great. If the propolis experiment doesn?t provide an outcome that warrants deeper study, that?s also fine. All you have given up is a little bit of time. Please keep everyone posted on your findings.
Totally agreed Les. Keep up the good work Reagan! 👍🏻
Phillip
Don't worry, I'll keep you updated. If I'm being totally honest, I was going to give it a try regardless of what anybody said. :wink: I was just curious if anyone else had tried it so I could learn from their experiences and compare notes.
QuoteDon't worry, I'll keep you updated. If I'm being totally honest, I was going to give it a try regardless of what anybody said. :wink: I was just curious if anyone else had tried it so I could learn from their experiences and compare notes.
Thats the spirit! :wink: :grin:
QuoteQuote
Don't worry, I'll keep you updated. If I'm being totally honest, I was going to give it a try regardless of what anybody said. :wink: I was just curious if anyone else had tried it so I could learn from their experiences and compare notes.
Thats the spirit! :wink: :grin:
I second this
Quote from: The15thMember on April 06, 2022, 04:59:36 PM
Quote from: Acebird on April 06, 2022, 04:00:29 PM
No not even close. Science is proving your conclusions are right based on what you observed.
Perhaps I'm nitpicking, but this sounds dangerously backwards to me, and I think a lot of bad science stems from this statement. In many cases, false "facts" can be found to support a conclusion.
I'm inclined to agree with 15th based on the phrasing of Ace's post. Proving conclusions are right based on observations sounds like a long winded way to say "confirmation bias". All due respect to individual members, of course.
True science may find an experiment that supports a hypothesis, but the results aren't accepted as a valid conclusion until all other potential explanations have been eliminated.
I have been following this thread, unsure of a conclusion, you would have to have 1000 hives smooth and 1000 hives rough to maybe find a difference, and the genetic difference of the hives would probably muddle the results.
Anyway where does this put the plastic and polystyrene hives in this topic, no propylis envelope and unhealthy bees??????
Quote from: Oldbeavo on April 10, 2022, 06:14:18 AM
Anyway where does this put the plastic and polystyrene hives in this topic, no propylis envelope and unhealthy bees??????
I have never seen the inside of a plastic/polystyrene used hive but I did assume the bees propolized them. Is my assumption wrong?
Quote from: The15thMember on April 03, 2022, 07:13:00 PM
If so, what did you use to rough up the boxes?
One way I have heard that beekeepers rough up the inside of the boxes quick is with an angle grinder and course wire wheel. Safety glasses and heavy gloves a must.
Quote from: Acebird on April 10, 2022, 08:54:33 AM
Quote from: Oldbeavo on April 10, 2022, 06:14:18 AM
Anyway where does this put the plastic and polystyrene hives in this topic, no propylis envelope and unhealthy bees??????
I have never seen the inside of a plastic/polystyrene used hive but I did assume the bees propolized them. Is my assumption wrong?
I have a few of the poly type hives as experimentals. Yes, I observed that the bees fill all the micro-gaps and grains in the foam with propolis as well as a very very thin coat over the already smooth surfaces.
I can't remember the name that did do a steady on this.. This was for his thesis for anthropology PhD... If I remember right it took place in University of Minnesota.. He actually used pieces of plastic Queen Excluder.. Cut to the proper size of the Box.. And then he just Use thumbtacks to hold them in place.. On the interior walls. :shocked: None of this power tool stuff. LOL
I did go to a bee meeting with this man talked at... It was in Leicester Massachusetts.. About 10 to 12 years ago..
BEE HAPPY Jim134. :smile:
The insides of a poly super are discolored a light brown color, very thin as you can see "grain" of the poly, i assume it is propylis.