hive split and drift

tlynn · August 12, 2008, 11:58:10 AM

I am splitting my first hive next week. I added a 2nd brood box 4 weeks ago and on last Sunday's inspection I found the box had at least 6 frames full of capped brood, larvae, and eggs. One frame seemed to be almost all eggs, like 70% of the frame from center out. The queen was also up there. Outside frames fully drawn as well and maybe 1/3 full of honey and numerous cells of pollen..

My queen will arrive next Wednesday. I talked to Purvis Brothers, where I am buying the queen, and was told 1) I need to have the split off hive queenless for at least 24 hrs and 2) if I put my second hive too close to the first I will get field bees coming back to the old hive and the new hive could have problems. She wasn't sure how far away it should be.

Do you get better acceptance after a period of queenlessness? How far away should the second hive be? Even with all that brood in the new box, can I really lose the hive if I don't get field bees coming back to it? I mean it seems that I'm going to be getting a lot of new brood emerging plus they already will have honey to eat if they need and pollen for the youngsters.

contactme_11 · August 12, 2008, 12:16:37 PM

Quote from: tlynn on August 12, 2008, 11:58:10 AM
was told 1) I need to have the split off hive queenless for at least 24 hrs

This is a good idea, but not absolute. The bees should discover they are queenless with the couple days it takes to get the new one out of her cage.

Quote from: tlynn on August 12, 2008, 11:58:10 AM
and 2) if I put my second hive too close to the first I will get field bees coming back to the old hive and the new hive could have problems. She wasn't sure how far away it should be.

some say you should have at least two miles. I find that 60-100' works well for me if the hive is pointing in a different direction. I also block them in for one overnight trapped together and the next day block their opening with some branches to confuse them. I usually will leave these in the way until lunch. These methods work well for me.

Quote from: tlynn on August 12, 2008, 11:58:10 AM
Do you get better acceptance after a period of queenlessness?

usually

Quote from: tlynn on August 12, 2008, 11:58:10 AM
How far away should the second hive be?

after getting astablished (so that they can defend against robbing), they can be as close as you want

Quote from: tlynn on August 12, 2008, 11:58:10 AM
Even with all that brood in the new box, can I really lose the hive if I don't get field bees coming back to it? I mean it seems that I'm going to be getting a lot of new brood emerging plus they already will have honey to eat if they need and pollen for the youngsters.

This is true, you can afford to lose some bees as newly hatched ones will only know their new hive and remain loyal to it.

tlynn · August 12, 2008, 03:28:36 PM

Hmm, 60-100 feet isn't possible because I have a small back yard. So then could I put a branch over the new hive entrance the first night?

Moonshae · August 12, 2008, 05:01:36 PM

You could shake a couple frames of nurse bees from the hive that will remain in the old location into the new hive to offset the drifting. Since these nurse bees have never been outside the hive, those that get promoted to foragers will orient to the new hive. Old foragers will return to the old hive. I've had great success with this method of splitting in my backyard.

tlynn · August 12, 2008, 05:15:55 PM

Quote from: Moonshae on August 12, 2008, 05:01:36 PM
You could shake a couple frames of nurse bees from the hive that will remain in the old location into the new hive to offset the drifting. Since these nurse bees have never been outside the hive, those that get promoted to foragers will orient to the new hive. Old foragers will return to the old hive. I've had great success with this method of splitting in my backyard.

So assuming I do this mid day, and I am assuming I shake brood frames, these bees should mostly be nurse bees?

Thanks!

Tracy

contactme_11 · August 12, 2008, 05:36:20 PM

Quote from: tlynn on August 12, 2008, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Moonshae on August 12, 2008, 05:01:36 PM
You could shake a couple frames of nurse bees from the hive that will remain in the old location into the new hive to offset the drifting. Since these nurse bees have never been outside the hive, those that get promoted to foragers will orient to the new hive. Old foragers will return to the old hive. I've had great success with this method of splitting in my backyard.

So assuming I do this mid day, and I am assuming I shake brood frames, these bees should mostly be nurse bees?

Thanks!

Tracy

You can do this anytime of day, but when I've done it was at dusk.

KONASDAD · August 12, 2008, 09:34:42 PM

Just a reminder, dont shake the queen into the hive which will receive the new queen. Your new queen usually gets killed and you will have to recombine w/ newspaper. This is why dividing perhaps 2-3 days before can be easier for a new beek. If you cant find queen, when dividing, it is usually apparent after 3 days of division and you can easily insert new queen cage. This also helps w/ drifting. Just place hives facing each other and they will equalize and remove a hive after queen is inserted to another place in yard. The more experienced you get, the less time that is needed between split and insertion of new queen.

tlynn · August 12, 2008, 09:57:58 PM

Konasdad, what's a newspaper recombine? Yea, good point about shaking down the queen. Fortunately she's easy to find. I think every time I look into the brood I spot her. Not a runner.

If she's in the new brood box when I split, how do I get her back in the donor box? I am a little nervous at the thought of handling her. Should I switch the frame she is on with one in the donor box?

Moonshae · August 12, 2008, 10:00:38 PM

Yes, swap the frame that she's on with one from the other box. Or, a day or so before you're going to split, make sure she's in the box you want, and add a queen excluder between the boxes, so you know she'll stay there.

Using newspaper to combine hives is an easy trick. Take a sheet of newspaper, make some thin slits in it, but it between the boxes, and by the time the bees chew away the paper, they're accustomed to each others' scent and will not fight.

tlynn · August 12, 2008, 10:11:18 PM

Quote from: Moonshae on August 12, 2008, 10:00:38 PM
a day or so before you're going to split, make sure she's in the box you want, and add a queen excluder between the boxes, so you know she'll stay there.

Do I need to do something to let the drones out or is it not a big deal for just a day?

Moonshae · August 12, 2008, 10:54:47 PM

I wouldn't worry about drones for a day, but if you want, you can prop up your outer cover with a stick to make a top entrance for them.

KONASDAD · August 13, 2008, 11:14:57 AM

Splis cause a lot of confusion for beginners. I would suggest looking at Michael Bush's site for loads of split info. I couldn't do justice to it myself. Just remember, the absolute worse thing that can happen is you put new queen in w/ old and one dies and a re-combine results. If you "aint makin' mistakes, you ain't learnin'." So forge ahead and do it!!!

tlynn · August 13, 2008, 02:46:27 PM

Quote from: KONASDAD on August 13, 2008, 11:14:57 AM
Splis cause a lot of confusion for beginners. I would suggest looking at Michael Bush's site for loads of split info. I couldn't do justice to it myself. Just remember, the absolute worse thing that can happen is you put new queen in w/ old and one dies and a re-combine results. If you "aint makin' mistakes, you ain't learnin'." So forge ahead and do it!!!

Yep, tru nuf. I do get concerned I'm going to screw something up. Guess it just comes from the fear inexperience can create.

Well, if that's the worst that can happen I just have to make sure to find my queen, which I always have been able to do.

Thanks for all the input everybody! I learn so much from this forum.

annette · August 13, 2008, 06:40:33 PM

If possible, try to shake some extra bees into the split as the nurse bees that fall in, will stay. When I split my hive last summer, I shook many, many bees into the new split to offset the ones that will return to the old hive. My hives were about 3feet apart and it turned out perfectly.

Also Michael Bush says you can place both hives really close sort of facing each other a bit. Then the foragers will equally drift into either hive. Check on his website for the details.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

Oops!! This post was redundant as I did not read further down. Sorry!!

tlynn · August 14, 2008, 08:15:57 AM

Annette, no worries...thanks!

If I split on Sunday and don't get my queen until Thursday is there any problem with the new hive being queenless for 4 days? Like would that give them enough time to get supercedure sells going and then take out my new queen when she arrives?

contactme_11 · August 14, 2008, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: tlynn on August 14, 2008, 08:15:57 AM
If I split on Sunday and don't get my queen until Thursday is there any problem with the new hive being queenless for 4 days? Like would that give them enough time to get supercedure sells going and then take out my new queen when she arrives?

That should be fine.

annette · August 14, 2008, 05:58:36 PM

Also I believe a laying, mated queen would have seniority over some queen cells. Am I wrong on this point??

Annette

rdy-b · August 14, 2008, 06:40:54 PM

you have to be careful mated queen wont chew up any queen cells that are present -(like a fresh hatched virgin queen would)-so that means that your new queen can be accepted fine and every thing goes good intill the queen cells that where left behind from the four days of queenliness -start to hatch -and then there is a likelihood of the colony throwing atleast one cast swarm- so cull the queen cells when you install the mated queen-RDY-B

annette · August 14, 2008, 08:09:13 PM

Quote from: annette on August 14, 2008, 05:58:36 PM
Also I believe a laying, mated queen would have seniority over some queen cells. Am I wrong on this point??

Annette

I am quoting myself, because I was not correct. The mated queen may be accepted into the hive, but she will have to battle with the queens being born. So, yes it is good to cut out the queen cells if you want to make sure your good queen reins. According to a very popular beekeeper named Serge Labesque, you need to cut out the queen cells first, then the new queen may be introduced.

Annette

rdy-b · August 14, 2008, 10:31:40 PM

first queen to hatch will destroy the other queen cells -so there will be Virgin queen and a fresh queen that was store bought -sometimes they battle and sometimes the hive will cast a swarm-this is why it is important to go through your hive after it has swarmed and make sure it is queen right -then remove any other queen cells because it my through more than one cast swarm -i have seen same hive swarm twice in one day -when your bees fly away small population invites problems of many 8-) RDY-B