Foundationless With Wire

[Cacklewack]

Greetings all,

One of the major issues with top bar and all foundationless hives is the fragility of the comb. If top bars are tipped the wrong way the threat of breaking off comb is always near. Have any of you tried using wire or other material with which to strengthen the comb?

I ask because I'm building 10+ hives this year and want to ensure the best possible situation for both the bees and me, and reducing the chance to break comb and thus irritate my bees is ideal!

I am thinking simply to attach a wire or other thin-yet-strong material straight down from the center of the top bar. Possibly a thin piece of wood might work. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks!

Matt

[Bee-Bop]

Isn't a small stick from the center bar, what everyone has been calling a popsicle stick ?

Search time !

Bee-Bop

[Cacklewack]

Bee-Bop,

I think most people use the popsicle stick as a "starter" so that the bees will build comb in the right spot. I'm thinking a piece of wire, skewer, wood, etc. that runs almost the entire length of the comb hanging down from the top bar.

Thanks,
Matt

[HomeBru]

There's a good discussion of foundationless here http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,18076.0.html with some pics of cross wires for stability...

J-

[Cacklewack]

Thanks, J. That's actually the thread that got me thinking about strengthening comb. The wire it looks like they are using however, is in an actual frame. being that I'm using top bars I have no frame to connect the wire to! My only option, that I can see, is to hang the wire/string/wood/etc. down from the bar itself.

Thanks,
Matt

[bassman1977]

Thanks, J. That's actually the thread that got me thinking about strengthening comb. The wire it looks like they are using however, is in an actual frame. being that I'm using top bars I have no frame to connect the wire to! My only option, that I can see, is to hang the wire/string/wood/etc. down from the bar itself.

I recall seeing a picutre of TBH's with a stick of some kind down the center for support.  I am pretty sure it was on this forum that I saw it.  I can see the picture in my head.  Anyway, it was just one stick down the middle.  The comb looked nice.

[Michael Bush]

>One of the major issues with top bar and all foundationless hives is the fragility of the comb.

Major?  No. Issue?  Yes.

> If top bars are tipped the wrong way the threat of breaking off comb is always near.

Which is why you shouldn't do that.  :)

> Have any of you tried using wire or other material with which to strengthen the comb?

As far as foundationless many people have with good success.  I've used a 1/16" welding rod across the middle of my Dadant Deep foundationless frames (11 1/4")

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/DadantDeep1.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#howdoyougofoundationless

I ask because I'm building 10+ hives this year and want to ensure the best possible situation for both the bees and me, and reducing the chance to break comb and thus irritate my bees is ideal!

I am thinking simply to attach a wire or other thin-yet-strong material straight down from the center of the top bar. Possibly a thin piece of wood might work. What are your thoughts on this?

I think this is what you're looking for:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#canwire

[Cacklewack]

You're a gentleman and a scholar, Michael Bush! As for the logistics of using a wire on a plain top bar, what do you recommend?

I found a site, and I can't link yet, but they they put two skewers through the bar at a 45 degree angle in order to maximize the strength of the support. What do you think?

Thanks!

Matt

[Michael Bush]

>As for the logistics of using a wire on a plain top bar, what do you recommend?

I see no way to use a wire without a frame.  A frame without a wire would be more useful.

>I found a site, and I can't link yet, but they they put two skewers through the bar at a 45 degree angle in order to maximize the strength of the support. What do you think?

The 45 degree would have the advantage of being followed as they go down.  I'm sure it would work fine.  But I prefer not to have things in my way when I cut out old comb or make cut comb honey.

[BjornBee]

Not sure what the need of a wire on a TBH is. My TBH's do great without any wire, and for harvesting honey, I will take the whole comb and thus encourage new comb rotation.

I have Frames of natural comb also in other different style TBH, and many frames in traditional hives. If they are brood chamber frames, then no wires are needed. If they are honey super frames, then yes, wires or supports are needed if you plan on extracting.

I think one needs to define what comb you would want to strengthen, and those that will not need any.

TBH....I see no need.
Foundationless frames in the brood chamber......No need.
Foundationless frames in the supers......I can see that. (But then knowing these are honey supers and will be extracted, there are other options other than worrying about natural comb. It matters in the brood chamber, it does not in the honey supers.)

[HomeBru]

Thanks, J. That's actually the thread that got me thinking about strengthening comb. The wire it looks like they are using however, is in an actual frame. being that I'm using top bars I have no frame to connect the wire to! My only option, that I can see, is to hang the wire/string/wood/etc. down from the bar itself.

Thanks,
Matt

Oops!  Somehow I missed the "Top Bar" references... Looks like it's time for some experimentation!

J-