Lost a hive need some consultation

annette · January 12, 2009, 10:35:15 PM

OK out of my 2 hives, I have lost a hive.

Went up to check today since we were having temps around 68. I knew they had died, but this was the first day I could get up there. I just want to know if I am correct about what happened.

We had an unusually cold winter this year with many days only reaching the 40's and nights down to the 20-30 range.

The hive was made up of 3 mediums.
The top super was totally filled up with honey - all 10 frames
The middle super is where I found the dead cluster, right in the middle about the size of a fist with the queen in the center. Heads pointed into the cells. One frame over there was honey on a frame, but I guess they probably got to cold to move????

So is my thinking correct. They starved to death due to being a small cluster that could not move around much??

My other hive is looking really great right now. Hope it continues.

Thanks
Annette :rainbowflower:

JP · January 12, 2009, 10:53:21 PM

That would be my guess as well Annette. Sorry for your loss. You gonna make a split or two come spring from your one hive?

...JP

Greg Peck · January 12, 2009, 10:59:01 PM

Your analysis sounds right to me. Was the hive small to begin with or was it doing really well then when you checked it now there was a very small cluster? I learned my first year that if you only have enough bees to fill one box then you should overwinter them in one box. If I have a hive that is 2 deeps but for what ever reason there is not a lot of bees I take one of the deeps off and consolidate the stores into the remaining box and shake the bees into it. I am sure that others feel differently about this but it has worked for me here in Pa. I know people say that the bees only heat there cluster not the inside of the hive witch is true, but if heat if coming off the cluster and going into a large space it is wasted. If it is going into a smaller space it has to be conserved a little at least. This would be why bees who set up open hives in trees usually die over winter.

WhipCityBeeMan · January 12, 2009, 11:03:11 PM

I am often looking for consolation rather than consultation when I lose a hive so kudos to you. it does sound like they starved out to me. Small clusters don't overwinter. I had 2 hives with small clusters that I brought into the basement this year. So far its working. They are clustered but the temps are not nearly as harsh. We are expecting temps to be down to 5 below this week. They don't know how fortunate they are. Also, I have brought them up out of the basement several times to go on cleansing flights when the temps were above 50. My wife got stung in the face during one such event. Should of had her veil on. She is a good sport though.

rdy-b · January 12, 2009, 11:27:44 PM

What happen to the colony that got sugared-gota keep mites down early and feed pollen paties so you have pleanty winter bees to generate heat -i know you already know how they died but winter loses is something we all go through-RDY-B

Scadsobees · January 13, 2009, 12:00:22 AM

Thats why we have more than one hive!! :-\

As far as the starving part... while they may have some problem moving when it is cold, I wouldn't consider your temps to be particularly cold. I think the main question is: how did they get so weak that they couldn't sustain themselves? Typically it is the varroa that will cause that type of weakness in the winter. Did you have a problem with mites this fall?

TimV · January 13, 2009, 12:04:33 AM

I'm with scads. I don't think it was the cold, not where you're at.

I'd look to why the cluster was so small, and I'd suspect mites. More info like what did the brood look like would be helpful, but at the end of the day it would be almost academic. There weren't enough bees, and the colony died.

Kathyp · January 13, 2009, 12:25:45 AM

sorry about your lost hive.

one thing i noticed doing cut outs is how the honey is placed by the bees when they do their own thing. they do have a lot above, but they also fill in the sides and even sometimes the bottom with honey. by fall, they have surrounded the brood nest on at least 3 sides. after seeing that, i realized that it was important to make sure that i had frames of honey close to the brood nest on both sides before winter, even to the point of being close to honey bound. prior to this observation, i had thought that just having a super of honey above was good enough.

Michael Bush · January 13, 2009, 06:15:37 AM

Too small of a cluster and cold can kill a hive. On the other hand keep in mind that I've seen a fairly small cluster survive sub zero F weather. Of course there is a point where the cluster is so small they can't generate enough heat.

BjornBee · January 13, 2009, 08:47:11 AM

I've had some rather small clusters also make it. But positioning of the cluster is important also. Annette mentions they are in the middle box, making any beneficial trapped heat, void.

I've seen small clusters in 5 frame nucs make it when you would of thought no way that they could. I've seen small clusters up against the inner cover feeding on fondant all winter, while benefitting from the trapped heat at the top of the box.

I'm not suggesting that annette could of done anything. It just worked out bad for her. But what I'm trying to suggest, is that every dead hive can tell you many things. And for years, people have said that trapped heat was nonsense, that bees do not heat the hive - only the cluster! But many times, trapped heat, whether intentional (And I believe it is intentional in many way the bees construct, store honey, maintain their colonies, etc.) or not, bees do benefit from trapped heat. And although annette, and myself included, may not of done anything for this hive as many times you see things too late, it does allow one to think of colony size in relation to the cluster size, the impact of oversized and unnatural hives, moisture control vs heat loss with top entrances, etc.

If a hive need 60-80 pounds of honey, which many times is overkill, then the bees are also half way to spring. In another 6-8 weeks, many bees will be bringing in the first pollen and nectar. So if you think about it, the bees should be in the top super, in position to raise brood, benefit from trapped heat, and work naturally down allowing the queen unlimited room for eggs.

Annette, I know I went a bit deep here. I just wanted to elaborate on what many times happens with small clusters and getting caught in the middle of the hive. Not that you could of seen this coming.

Robo · January 13, 2009, 09:09:22 AM

I'm with Greg and a few others on this.

I think you are right that they starved, but the real question that needs to be answered is why was the cluster so small? What was the lineage of the queen, that is what I would suspect. Bees survive much better if they have just enough space to occupy. Cutting the hive down makes a big difference. And for a backyarder, a little supplemental heat (and perhaps insulated hives) also makes a tremendous difference. Finski was able to consistently over winter fist size clusters in Finland with much harsher winters than any of us. I have also had great success with just a 7watt night light.

Keith13 · January 13, 2009, 09:50:24 AM

Annette
Sorry to hear about your hive, just remember to look forward to spring.

Keith

DayValleyDahlias · January 14, 2009, 02:29:54 AM

Hi Annette,

I to am sorry to hear about the loss. I have my fingers crossed tightly that my 3 will survive, so far so good...

What is your plan??

Hugs to you~*~*~

annette · January 14, 2009, 06:59:17 PM

Quote from: JP on January 12, 2009, 10:53:21 PM
That would be my guess as well Annette. Sorry for your loss. You gonna make a split or two come spring from your one hive?

...JP

I hope to split the remaining hive this Spring. I will have to read up on how to do splits. "Yikes"

annette · January 14, 2009, 07:01:44 PM

Quote from: Greg Peck on January 12, 2009, 10:59:01 PM
Your analysis sounds right to me. Was the hive small to begin with or was it doing really well then when you checked it now there was a very small cluster? I learned my first year that if you only have enough bees to fill one box then you should overwinter them in one box. If I have a hive that is 2 deeps but for what ever reason there is not a lot of bees I take one of the deeps off and consolidate the stores into the remaining box and shake the bees into it. I am sure that others feel differently about this but it has worked for me here in Pa. I know people say that the bees only heat there cluster not the inside of the hive witch is true, but if heat if coming off the cluster and going into a large space it is wasted. If it is going into a smaller space it has to be conserved a little at least. This would be why bees who set up open hives in trees usually die over winter.

This hive appeared to be very strong in October and filled all 3 medium supers. The only thing that was strange about this hive, was they never built up properly. They did not want to take the sugar syrup I gave them. I mean they took it, but not enough to bring the wt up to snuff. That is why I ended up dumping a whole bunch of bakers sugar on the top super.

annette · January 14, 2009, 07:03:01 PM

Quote from: WhipCityBeeMan on January 12, 2009, 11:03:11 PM
I am often looking for consolation rather than consultation when I lose a hive so kudos to you. it does sound like they starved out to me. Small clusters don't overwinter. I had 2 hives with small clusters that I brought into the basement this year. So far its working. They are clustered but the temps are not nearly as harsh. We are expecting temps to be down to 5 below this week. They don't know how fortunate they are. Also, I have brought them up out of the basement several times to go on cleansing flights when the temps were above 50. My wife got stung in the face during one such event. Should of had her veil on. She is a good sport though.

Honestly I have had my share of blood, sweat and tears from my beehives. I hope I have finally learned to relax with it all.

annette · January 14, 2009, 07:05:07 PM

Quote from: rdy-b on January 12, 2009, 11:27:44 PM
What happen to the colony that got sugared-gota keep mites down early and feed pollen paties so you have pleanty winter bees to generate heat -i know you already know how they died but winter loses is something we all go through-RDY-B

both of my hives had nearly no mites at all when I checked in October. And I do not feed pollen patties if I can see they have enough of their own pollen. I am really not sure why this happened, but obviously they were a weak hive and I did not see the signs.

annette · January 14, 2009, 07:07:27 PM

Quote from: kathyp on January 13, 2009, 12:25:45 AM
sorry about your lost hive.

one thing i noticed doing cut outs is how the honey is placed by the bees when they do their own thing. they do have a lot above, but they also fill in the sides and even sometimes the bottom with honey. by fall, they have surrounded the brood nest on at least 3 sides. after seeing that, i realized that it was important to make sure that i had frames of honey close to the brood nest on both sides before winter, even to the point of being close to honey bound. prior to this observation, i had thought that just having a super of honey above was good enough.

Yes Kathy that is important. I know they had the whole super above, and a few frames in the middle, but I have not idea what they had down below, as I did not want to disturb them to much at the time.

Greg Peck · January 14, 2009, 07:11:09 PM

Where did your bees come from?

annette · January 14, 2009, 07:17:27 PM

I thank all of you for your help and support and all the good information. I am printing out this topic and will read it over again to make sure I am understanding all the advice.

I think I should have really given this hive a better inspection in October to see how large they really were. I believe they had to much space as the end result seems to show this, although it could have been something else. As I mentioned, when I opened up the hive in October I saw so many bees in each super (3mediums) and thought they were ok.

This hive was an Italian Queen package I purchased last spring. They were doing really great all along until this happened.

I plan on getting onto a swarm list this spring to have about 4 hives total.

You are all so wonderful
Sincerely
Annette