Aggresive bees

dano41 · February 22, 2009, 06:50:51 AM

Hi I have a hive of really aggressive bees, I ordered a queen from a strain of bees which are very gentle and set up a hive with it.Could someone tell me the best way to deal with the aggressive hive by this I mean If I was to remove the aggressive queen and place a frame of eggs from the gentle bees would the resulting queen not have a lot of aggression if she mates with drones from the aggressive hive?Is there any way to prevent this?Is the aggressive gene carried in equal amounts by drone and queen?

BjornBee · February 22, 2009, 07:49:24 AM

Dana,
Where are you from? My advice of what to do, will depend on your location. Not "if" you tell me, but what you tell me. :-D

dano41 · February 22, 2009, 08:03:49 AM

North west Ireland.

BjornBee · February 22, 2009, 08:45:44 AM

First, lets look at why a hive could be "hot"

1) Pests or constant irritations
2) Seasonality influences
3) Genetics

The queen you raise in theory, should not mate with drones from the same hot hive. But since inbreeding is a potential problem for any breeding attempts, of course she could have that possible scenario. Her genetics may of been distributed in the area from her drones, thus having an impact on the gene pool she now is potentially mating with.

I think the easiest thing to do is take eggs and make a queen from another hive if you have one.

The next possibility would be to have the mean hive requeen themselves. What your doing however is throwing the dice and taking what mother nature gives you. If you take any breeding program, and make 100 queens, most times you will get 90 of what you expected. Maybe 5 will be duds, and 5% will be much better than expected, in whatever criteria you are judging. I personally do not see much carry over in maintaining hot hives. Meaning, once requeened even with their own stock, it normally levels out and does not continue to stay hot with the next generation.

Anytime you leave the bees requeen themselves, you play the odds in getting something across the board from good to bad. As a breeder myself, I believe that controlling genetics and culling is important. Many will mention that the bees know best, and we should let mother nature do it bidding. But I personally think my customers like the fact that I breed from my best, cull out the queens that are duds, and do not pass on the 1 or 2% of queen that exhibit aggressive tendencies. So as a producer yourself, in times when you raise queens or let them requeen themselves, you should also be willing to cull, and expect a wide range of potential quality.

The third option would be to get a queen from an outside source. Of course we always expect a breeder to cull, have proper mating protocol, and only provide the best queens, that never fail, never get nasty, and never have issues. And that does not always happen.

I favor placing a queen cell or a raised/purchased queen for almost all requeening. This mainly is due to the downtime involved in letting a hive requeen. Unlike when a hive swarms or supercedes, which many times has a queen being productive up to within a few days of the new queen emerging, requeening by beekeeper manipulation usually involves a far longer downtime period. (you can manipulate a hive to minimize this downtime, but many beekeepers just kill the old hot queen and let them raise a new one. What a waste of hive resource and potential) You can offset, or minimize this downtime by purchasing a queen. And if you figure in productivity terms, what impact having a non-laying queen in your hive equates too, it far outweighs the cost of the queen, even if it's only 10 pounds of honey.

In the end, yes you can let the hive requeen itself and odds are you will have a better queen.

dano41 · February 22, 2009, 10:05:54 AM

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.Where I live it is quite difficult to get queens but I managed to get one last august from the Galtee breeders here in Ireland these bees would tend to be docile.Due to Illness on my part my bee keeping had to take a back seat until last year I made a nuc from the hot hive introduced the queen and it was successful,so on your recommendation I will remove hot queen and take eggs from the new colony and place them in the hot hive.Should I wait until the hives have built up before doing this?If there are not enough bees in the hot hive would the new queen be less well fed and therefore inferior?

BjornBee · February 22, 2009, 10:36:49 AM

When I say "take eggs from another hive..." what I was suggesting is to make sure the new queen is from eggs of another hive. You can do this by making up a nuc, waiting for swarm cells, raising some eggs above the brood chamber and forcing cells to be built, etc.

Unless you make sure no brood is left in the old hive, and then place eggs from another hive, you may just be raising a queen from the hot queen. And to do this, again, it's just not that efficient, or easy to do.

I would rather see you make a new queen from another hive, then place a queen cell or a mated queen into the hot hive, after removing the hot hive queen and waiting a day or two.

How you go about this depends on your confidence and equipment on hand.

BjornBee · February 22, 2009, 10:38:55 AM

And yes, unless there is a safety issue, wait for the hives to naturally build up this spring. And who knows....a spring flow just might settle that queen down, or they may just requeen her themselves... ;)

Michael Bush · February 22, 2009, 11:23:10 AM

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

Kathyp · February 22, 2009, 03:00:47 PM

define aggressive. i have one hive that shoots bees out like a shotgun and they ping off me the whole time i'm working with them. they are pretty protective of the hive, but i have never been stung by these bees. they follow farther than the bees from the other hives, but even when i don't have gear on, they don't sting. i don't really consider them aggressive. if they were stinging or chasing and stinging, that would be a different story.

JP · February 22, 2009, 03:10:00 PM

Quote from: kathyp on February 22, 2009, 03:00:47 PM
define aggressive. i have one hive that shoots bees out like a shotgun and they ping off me the whole time i'm working with them. they are pretty protective of the hive, but i have never been stung by these bees. they follow farther than the bees from the other hives, but even when i don't have gear on, they don't sting. i don't really consider them aggressive. if they were stinging or chasing and stinging, that would be a different story.

Kathy, I don't have a problem working a hive like that at all. I have several that give warnings, they'll fly out, bump my hands just to voice their opinion and move right back in. I love hives like this and they seem to do this consistently as if its a trait of that hive which I guess it is.

The ones I don't like are the hives that you constantly have to apply smoke to and you still take 4-8 stings. That is just not fun. I spoke of one like that I worked on Friday like that and they will be getting requeened.

...JP

rast · February 22, 2009, 03:44:29 PM

"The ones I don't like are the hives that you constantly have to apply smoke to and you still take 4-8 stings. That is just not fun. I spoke of one like that I worked on Friday like that and they will be getting requeened."

I just worked a hive like that while JP was typing, trying in vain to find the queen. Second attempt. My poor ol yard cat took a couple of stings 10 min. later. I had to walk through bushes to try to loose them and some were waiting on the other side.
I can not find any eggs or larva in any of the frames. There are several never capped queen cells, some pretty small. All middle to lower third of the frames. They are no noisier when undisturbed than my other hives. I hate to put a queen in there and them kill her. I want different genetics though. This hive has been mean since I got it and now is worse.

jdb1930 · February 22, 2009, 04:00:20 PM

I am glad you asked this question because I have a really hot hive right now as well. Before I even get 30 feet from the hive they come out and start bouncing off my suit and stinging. A few even stung me through my suit where it was pulled tight. As soon as I am able to get a hold of a new queen, I will be re-queening these girls.

The hive right next to them is so good, they don't even need smoke, go figure.

BjornBee · February 22, 2009, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: jdb1930 on February 22, 2009, 04:00:20 PM
The hive right next to them is so good, they don't even need smoke, go figure.

Two things can change that. Them requeening themselves, and insurptation.

dano41 · February 22, 2009, 04:16:00 PM

The last time I went to the aggressive hive I'm talking about following two gentle puffs of smoke at the hive enterance I ended up with at least fifty yes 50 stings on a pair of heavy gauntelets I was wearing, I ran back to the house.

twb · February 22, 2009, 04:47:11 PM

Quote from: BjornBee on February 22, 2009, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: jdb1930 on February 22, 2009, 04:00:20 PM
The hive right next to them is so good, they don't even need smoke, go figure.

Two things can change that. Them requeening themselves, and insurptation.

Just out of curiosity, could you define "insurptation" I did some dictionary diving but found no results. Thanks.

BjornBee · February 22, 2009, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: twb on February 22, 2009, 04:47:11 PM
Quote from: BjornBee on February 22, 2009, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: jdb1930 on February 22, 2009, 04:00:20 PM
The hive right next to them is so good, they don't even need smoke, go figure.

Two things can change that. Them requeening themselves, and insurptation.

Just out of curiosity, could you define "insurptation" I did some dictionary diving but found no results. Thanks.

Insurptation is when a small swarm of Africanized bees take over the colony and kills the queen and they install their own. A classic sign of this happening for those in AHB territory, is when you see a small cluster on the outside of the hive. They will wait till night when the entrance is clear, and walk right into the hive.

So one day you have a normal strain of bees, and the next, the colony is headed by a AHB queen.

JP · February 22, 2009, 06:46:19 PM

Mike, don't mean to offend but the correct term is usurpation http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=155925

...JP

BjornBee · February 22, 2009, 07:19:07 PM

Quote from: JP on February 22, 2009, 06:46:19 PM
Mike, don't mean to offend but the correct term is usurpation http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=155925

...JP

Thank you.

Don't tell twb. :-D I wonder how long he was looking for that.... :buttkick:

fermentedhiker · February 22, 2009, 08:59:20 PM

Quote from: JP on February 22, 2009, 06:46:19 PM
Mike, don't mean to offend but the correct term is usurpation http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=155925

...JP

Thanks for the link. Even in the middle of winter with over a foot of snow on the ground I learn something new about bees everyday. The girls are full of surprises.

rast · February 23, 2009, 12:15:19 AM

In my case, even if taken over by AHB, I should have seen eggs or larva. I checked two other hives here at the house before tackling this one. The first two were Sissy's.