Strategy for finding queen/splitting from 3 deep hive?

tlynn · April 13, 2009, 06:22:47 PM

In a couple weeks I am going to be splitting a hive with 3 deeps into 2 hives, with 2 and 1 deep respectively. Questions:

1) How do I find the queen in such a large hive with frames so full of brood? I assume I will be splitting the hives a day before I queen the new hive and so will need to find the queen when I split. Or would I just make the box splits without worrying about where the queen is and then wait a few days and look for eggs? But will the queenless hive go into queen making mode, creating problems when I queen it?

2) I have read about simulating a swarm by taking the old queen out along with frames and putting her in a new hive. But it seems like I am just taking her and her brood box and moving it adjacent to the donor hive and then requeening the donor hive. I don't see how they would think she left. It's just rearranging boxes. Am I missing something?

Kathyp · April 13, 2009, 06:51:22 PM

do you have a reason for buying queens rather than letting them requeen themselves? you have the option of doing a walkaway split and letting them make their own queen. it's probably the easiest way. MB has a good section on it, and you can search the site for more info.

i think the easiest way if you are going to requeen, is to put an excluder between boxes the week or so before and then check for new eggs. you'll know which box she's in by then.

2-they'll think she left because she's not in the box. they don't care about what is next door....if i understand your question correctly.

Robo · April 13, 2009, 07:19:23 PM

Quote from: tlynn on April 13, 2009, 06:22:47 PM
1) How do I find the queen in such a large hive with frames so full of brood?

Look for the bee with a color marking on her abdomen, she should be easy to spot.

Sorry, couldn't resist :evil:

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I assume I will be splitting the hives a day before I queen the new hive and so will need to find the queen when I split. Or would I just make the box splits without worrying about where the queen is and then wait a few days and look for eggs? But will the queenless hive go into queen making mode, creating problems when I queen it?

You can narrow it down by putting queen excluders between the boxes and then look for eggs in a few days, that at least cuts the size of the haystack down that you have to search thru. If you just split them without finding the queen, the queenless half will most likely start making queen cells within 24 hours.

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2) I have read about simulating a swarm by taking the old queen out along with frames and putting her in a new hive. But it seems like I am just taking her and her brood box and moving it adjacent to the donor hive and then requeening the donor hive. I don't see how they would think she left. It's just rearranging boxes. Am I missing something?

It all depends on your perspective. When you remove the queen and the brood, you could consider the results the same, just not in the same time frame. When a swarm leaves, the new queen has to hatch and then taking mating flights before she starts laying. So there is a week or more break in the brood rearing. By removing the queen and brood as you propose, it has a similar effect, a new queen and less brood.

As far as doing a walk away split, if the hive you are splitting is not raising swarm cells, then the conditions aren't at its prime for them to raise queens. There are some good discussions on emergency queens here -> http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,20086.msg153226.html#msg153226

Without trying to be sarcastic, if you don't use marked queens, you have no idea if you still have your good queen or a supersedure queen anyway.

I thought Florida required marked queens for AHBs?

tlynn · April 13, 2009, 08:51:58 PM

Quote from: Robo on April 13, 2009, 07:19:23 PM
Quote from: tlynn on April 13, 2009, 06:22:47 PM
1) How do I find the queen in such a large hive with frames so full of brood?
Look for the bee with a color marking on her abdomen, she should be easy to spot.

Sorry, couldn't resist :evil:

Aw, Robo, you're killing me!

Quote

As far as doing a walk away split, if the hive you are splitting is not raising swarm cells, then the conditions aren't at its prime for them to raise queens. There are some good discussions on emergency queens here -> http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,20086.msg153226.html#msg153226

Without trying to be sarcastic, if you don't use marked queens, you have no idea if you still have your good queen or a supersedure queen anyway.

I thought Florida required marked queens for AHBs?

No, haven't had a marked queen in this hive. My previous queen was very orange and the queen I found last month was dark in color. It was obvious. Before I noticed the change I had a few queen cells high up on the frames. Haven't seen swarm cells lately, however I didn't do a lot of looking last week.

I don't believe we have a marked queen requirement; I would think that would be a big discussion item here in FLA and I haven't heard one thing about it. I'll ask our inspector and post here.

Question from kathyp about why I don't let them make a new queen - I am buying queens from TN to avoid AHB genes, since I figure I don't know who my virgin queen would be slumming with!

rast · April 13, 2009, 08:56:59 PM

Marked queens are not a legal requirement in Fl.. They do want you to and try to get you to sign a paper agreeing to it during inspections.

Kathyp · April 13, 2009, 09:03:17 PM

good reason. we do not yet have to worry about that up here.

Michael Bush · April 13, 2009, 09:50:27 PM

>1) How do I find the queen in such a large hive with frames so full of brood?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenspotting.htm

> I assume I will be splitting the hives a day before I queen the new hive and so will need to find the queen when I split. Or would I just make the box splits without worrying about where the queen is and then wait a few days and look for eggs?

Or queen cells.

> But will the queenless hive go into queen making mode, creating problems when I queen it?

Yes, but you can destroy them if you insist. Why not skip buying the queen and you'll get one for free. :)

>2) I have read about simulating a swarm by taking the old queen out along with frames and putting her in a new hive. But it seems like I am just taking her and her brood box and moving it adjacent to the donor hive and then requeening the donor hive. I don't see how they would think she left. It's just rearranging boxes. Am I missing something?

They will have a new young queen and less bees, which may cause them to think they swarmed.

JoelinGA · April 13, 2009, 10:59:23 PM

Jumping in to pose another question about splitting. Still toying with the idea of splitting my hive as it looks great.

Is it too late in the year to do a split? When would you make a cut off date?

Michael Bush · April 14, 2009, 09:01:33 PM

>Is it too late in the year to do a split? When would you make a cut off date?

You can feed all winter in Georgia. I would think you could split pretty late. It's far to early here. We don't even have drones yet...