Is This Brood?

David LaFerney · May 23, 2009, 04:46:33 PM

Quote from: Barry on May 23, 2009, 01:03:25 PM
what I don't quite understand id why would anyone want to force the bees to manufacture the singular most resource expensive produce the base of the combs the foundation as it were when you can provide it for them or is this one of those 4.9 attempts to try to varroa proof your bees. Just wondering.
Barry

I'm completly new at this so I wouldn't presume to Know if foundationless is better or not, but here's why I'm doing it -

1) I've read very reasonable explanations of why foundationless might be better - maybe correct, maybe not.

2) If I change my mind it will be pretty easy to start using foundation at any point, but if I start out using foundation it would be a lot harder to remove it from the system.

3) Since at this point beekeeping is strictly a hobby efficient production of honey is completely immaterial. I'm just trying to learn and enjoy.

Kathyp · May 23, 2009, 05:06:00 PM

one of the most persuasive arguments for me was that with foundation, the bees must work both sides, dividing their efforts. when they are building comb from scratch, they are working straight down (you hope) and working together. comb building is more efficient, thus less labor intensive.

it's also cheaper, and probably healthier since the wax used for foundation may contain remnants of treatments past.

JP · May 23, 2009, 07:00:47 PM

What I like about going foundationless is the bees are given the opportunity to make whatever cell size they want to. I think it makes for happier bees IMO. At least I like to think so. ;)

...JP

David LaFerney · May 23, 2009, 11:01:57 PM

Quote from: kathyp on May 23, 2009, 05:06:00 PM
it's also cheaper, and probably healthier since the wax used for foundation may contain remnants of treatments past.

All that too. As far as I'm concerned the fewer manufactured things (foundation, wooden ware, chemicals, etc) that I have to use, the better. I don't put poison on my yard or garden, and I don't want to use it on bees either if there is any way to avoid it.

David LaFerney · May 23, 2009, 11:06:15 PM

Quote from: JP on May 23, 2009, 07:00:47 PM
What I like about going foundationless is the bees are given the opportunity to make whatever cell size they want to. I think it makes for happier bees IMO. At least I like to think so. ;)

...JP

You apparently have quite a lot of experience, and I'm sure your opinion is valuable. It seems to me that going foundationless puts one in pretty good company. I'm sure that would also be true if I did use foundation. Anyway it seems to be a perfectly valid choice.

David LaFerney · May 23, 2009, 11:13:08 PM

Quote from: kathyp on May 23, 2009, 03:54:56 PM
melatonin. you will get a good night sleep and not be hung over in the morning. one added advantage is that for the first week or so, you will have vivid dreams. they are awesome. make sure you read a really good book before dropping off. you may find yourself riding dragons, or killing bad guys through the night! :evil:

Sounds like you've read the "Eragon" series. Melatonin only works for me about 1/3 of the time. For some reason I only remember having dreams if I can sleep until I'm ready to get up on my own - not very often.

If I every win the lottery I'm gonna start sleeping until I'm ready to get up - maybe even 7 or 7:30 sometimes.

David LaFerney · May 23, 2009, 11:14:53 PM

Quote from: Sean Kelly on May 22, 2009, 02:53:51 PM
Quote from: David LaFerney on May 22, 2009, 04:47:25 AM
Can anyone recommend a good non-habit-forming sleep aid?

a good whack from a cast iron frying pan always works and is non-habbit forming, although it gives you a head ache just as bad as sleeping pills will give you.

Check with your doctor, there might be an underlying reason why you're not sleeping well. Could have sleep apnea. Or like me, I had carpal tunnel in both hands which kept waking me several times each night. Had surgery and I'm cured!!!!

Sean Kelly

It could just be my guilty conscience.

Kathyp · May 23, 2009, 11:31:04 PM

QuoteSounds like you've read the "Eragon" series

the 1st 2. i am waiting for the library to kick loose the 3rd :-)

Barry · May 24, 2009, 01:31:35 PM

Wasn't trying to be abusive, not at all nor critical, I do understand the concepts of foundationless beekeeping, hence the top bar hives showing up through out the country. As I have always stated in most all the posts here and elsewhere these are my personal preferences, I thought I remembered the conversion ratios of nectar to honey and honey to wax is really quite amazing.
Barry

Kathyp · May 24, 2009, 01:38:04 PM

QuoteWasn't trying to be abusive, not at all nor critical, I do understand the concepts of foundationless beekeeping

i thought it was a good question. there are some drawbacks to foundationless.

you have to keep an eye on it because the bees will sometimes make wonky comb.
the comb is fragile when it's not completely attached, so you have to use care when you inspect.

it's a preference thing.

David LaFerney · May 24, 2009, 02:15:32 PM

Quote from: Barry on May 24, 2009, 01:31:35 PM
Wasn't trying to be abusive, not at all nor critical, I do understand the concepts of foundationless beekeeping, hence the top bar hives showing up through out the country. As I have always stated in most all the posts here and elsewhere these are my personal preferences, I thought I remembered the conversion ratios of nectar to honey and honey to wax is really quite amazing.
Barry

No problem. Everything is subject to opinion.

However I might point out that even if you use foundation the only wax that you are supplying is the "bottom" of the cell chambers, and if you examine a piece of "natural" honey comb you will see that that part of it is as thin and gauzy as a single ply of tissue paper. I bet a frames worth of foundation doesn't save the bees a piece of wax much bigger than a lima bean.

I've also noticed that the bottoms of the cells aren't flat at all - it's kind of a complex inverse pyramidal shape because the center of the cells on one side are nested between the cells on the other side. Who knows if that makes any difference to the bees - but that's how they make it. I can imagine that the natural shape fits the developing brood better than a flat bottom does.

Is the cell bottom flat on foundation?

JP · May 24, 2009, 02:28:51 PM

A lot of times its good to give them some drawn comb or even foundation next to foundationless with starter strips to get them drawing correctly. Some love to cross comb.

BTW, I use waxed plasticell in my honey supers.

...JP

Barry · May 24, 2009, 02:48:39 PM

The only problem I noted with foundation, is the occasional hole chewed through the bottom corners, or along the bottom bars, never had issues with fully drawn out foundation. I use only deep supers, and use them with foundation to with stand extraction. wired and all that, brood chambers do not require wiring, as not subject to rigors of being extracted. :-D
Barry

Barry · May 24, 2009, 03:16:13 PM

Also as a second thought, new comb is exceedingly fragile very delicate, and if by chance they cross brace the combs well could damage the combs. Just one more thought
Barry

Kathyp · May 24, 2009, 07:36:03 PM

Quotevery delicate, and if by chance they cross brace the combs well could damage the combs

that's why you have to keep an eye on how they start. for the most part, with starter strips, they do a great job. some will mess up. i put a full sheet of foundation down the middle with a new hive, or a frame of drawn foundation if i have extra. that pretty much keeps things straight.

JP, really....quoting me..... :evil: