When and how does the first queen kill the rest when re-queening a hive ?

Joelel · August 25, 2009, 06:16:20 PM

When and how does the first queen born kill the rest when the bees are re queening a hive ?

Natalie · August 25, 2009, 10:37:08 PM

The first one to hatch goes around and stings the other virgins that are still in their cells, killing them.
If more than one hatch at the same time then they will fight and sting eachother to the death.

bmacior · August 29, 2009, 08:29:14 AM

I've been wondering that myself. If the first queen that "emerges" immediately goes around and kills all the other pupae queens that the hive has put a lot of time and energy into, the hive will fail if that one virgin queen is lost if they have no more eggs. At the very least, they have lost 2-3 weeks if they have to start over again. I've also heard the other queens are not killed until such time that the new queen comes back mated. That sounds alot more logical.

Michael Bush · August 29, 2009, 11:39:28 AM

Virgins, sometime after they emerge, start looking for cells about to emerge and they sting these. Then, sometime after that, they start looking for virgin queens to fight. Virgin queens aren't looking for laying queens and so they often coexist for some time. Laying queens aren't looking for anyone to fight, so they don't bother the virgin nor do they bother her after she's laying. Eventually it seems the bees will either throw out the old queen (I've found her outside the hive on the ground before still alive) or perhaps it's the same as drones where they first try throwing them out and eventually sting them if they have to.

JP · August 29, 2009, 03:27:21 PM

I removed 9 queens from this colony last year (08). http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/APRIL102008# All were alive and well. I had queen cages and queen catchers (5 in all) with me. Housed 4 queens together in a small vented container. One killed the other four.

Also worth noting is somehow one of the queens worked their way underneath the motor housing of my beevac, when it was in the grass behind me, and wound up inside of the beevac. I had a good many follow her inside the vac. This was a first!

...JP

Michael Bush · August 29, 2009, 03:30:45 PM

I watched two virgins for hours dance around, run around etc. in my observation hive and finally went to bed. I kept thinking they would fight it out and I'd get to watch. But by the next night one was gone.

JP · August 29, 2009, 03:34:31 PM

Yeah, they're not always violent, bet that was a lot of fun to watch Mike!

...JP

Joelel · August 29, 2009, 04:04:54 PM

Quote from: bmacior on August 29, 2009, 08:29:14 AM
I've been wondering that myself. If the first queen that "emerges" immediately goes around and kills all the other pupae queens that the hive has put a lot of time and energy into, the hive will fail if that one virgin queen is lost if they have no more eggs. At the very least, they have lost 2-3 weeks if they have to start over again. I've also heard the other queens are not killed until such time that the new queen comes back mated. That sounds alot more logical.

These are my same thoughts,that's why I ask the question. The thing is also,they can't start over if they lose their queen and the first virgin queen because they won't have any eggs,they will have allready be made into other workers.

Joelel · August 29, 2009, 04:11:50 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on August 29, 2009, 11:39:28 AM
Virgins, sometime after they emerge, start looking for cells about to emerge and they sting these. Then, sometime after that, they start looking for virgin queens to fight. Virgin queens aren't looking for laying queens and so they often coexist for some time. Laying queens aren't looking for anyone to fight, so they don't bother the virgin nor do they bother her after she's laying. Eventually it seems the bees will either throw out the old queen (I've found her outside the hive on the ground before still alive) or perhaps it's the same as drones where they first try throwing them out and eventually sting them if they have to.

So,your saying,if the queen dies and they build new queen cells and the first virgin queen out kills the others and then gets lost or killed herself,the hive will die ? Unless a bee keeper gives them a frame of eggs.

David LaFerney · August 29, 2009, 04:50:39 PM

Quote from: Joelel on August 29, 2009, 04:11:50 PM
Quote from: Michael Bush on August 29, 2009, 11:39:28 AM
Virgins, sometime after they emerge, start looking for cells about to emerge and they sting these. Then, sometime after that, they start looking for virgin queens to fight. Virgin queens aren't looking for laying queens and so they often coexist for some time. Laying queens aren't looking for anyone to fight, so they don't bother the virgin nor do they bother her after she's laying. Eventually it seems the bees will either throw out the old queen (I've found her outside the hive on the ground before still alive) or perhaps it's the same as drones where they first try throwing them out and eventually sting them if they have to.

So,your saying,if the queen dies and they build new queen cells and the first virgin queen out kills the others and then gets lost or killed herself,the hive will die ? Unless a bee keeper gives them a frame of eggs.

If you think about it what probably actually happens is that before long a worker starts laying (drone brood) and the hive produces as many drones as it can for as long as it can before the workers all start to die off. By producing the drones they make it possible that even if the hive dies those drones at least have a chance of passing the genetics on to other hives. A hive that was already weak my not last long enough to produce all that many drones and is more likely to disappear entirely, but a strong hive could produce many drones and have a better chance to continue the line. So the strong still have a better chance to survive.

Then maybe a swarm moves in. And so it goes.