Did you start out Chemical free?

[David LaFerney]

I added #6 as something of an after thought, and I realize that it over laps with #1.  

I added the last option because 27 people had looked, but only 7 had responded.  If you're experience is not included in one of the options please speak up so that I can change the pole.

I have started to suspect that very few beeks have been able to start out chemical free from the very beginning and then successfully continued that for a significant time.  If anyone has (and I hope someone has) I would love to hear all about how they did it.

[bigbearomaha]

 I am curious about your two year predilection.

For example,  i spent about that much time calling myself a beekeeper, even though  I was helping work someone else's bee's.  now I am setting up my own apiary, doing things the way  I would like to and getting things to go for next spring.

so, I have been beekeeping for about two years, but not my bees, not my choices.   I plan to do no treatments with my bees beginning this spring, so  I seem to be in the middle.

Have fun,

Big Bear

[David LaFerney]

I am curious about your two year predilection.

For example,  i spent about that much time calling myself a beekeeper, even though  I was helping work someone else's bee's.  now I am setting up my own apiary, doing things the way  I would like to and getting things to go for next spring.

so, I have been beekeeping for about two years, but not my bees, not my choices.   I plan to do no treatments with my bees beginning this spring, so  I seem to be in the middle.

Have fun,

Big Bear

I reworded  one of the choices (#5 I think) so that it still includes those who have already answered, but should also now work for you.  You should be able to change your vote if you need to.

[BjornBee]

This poll really brings out a few points to consider.

First....chemical free, is not treatment free.

Too many decide to quit using chemicals, then fail, with large losses. They fail to understand that going chemical free, is best when a well rounded IPM strategy is in place. This may include management options, equipment option, and genetics coming into play. To simply use chemicals one year, then decide to do NOTHING the next, is really missing the point.

I do not use chemicals, but I would never say that I am "treatment free". I manipulate the genetics I desire, use management strategies to include brood breaks and requeening, and a host of other things that fall under the umbrella of keeping bees.

Unless your abandoning your hives altogether, you are "treating" them in some manner. Whether that is suppressing swarming by supering, manipulating combs to enhance spring brood buildup, or anything else.

Chemical free....yes.

Treatment free....No!

I laughed this past summer at a group of beekeepers all getting together attending a "treatment free" convention. No such thing in my book.

[bigbearomaha]

I would think that swarm management and manipulations would fall under hive management as opposed to treatment.

In my understanding, 'treatment' is introducing an agent for the purpose of preventing or intervening in a health/illness situation.

For example.  I would call using whatever for mites a treatment because the mites directly impact the bees health as both parasites and as carriers of disease.

It could be said that installing hive beetle traps is a hive management technique because the hive beetles affect the hive  directly and the bees indirectly.  The substance in the traps are not intended for the bees, but rather the beetles. In which case, the bees themselves are still not treated.


To suppress swarming or otherwise attempt some sort of control over it would be, in my opinion, a hive management technique, not a treatment.

I can see the possibility of calling a system a non-treatment system and still use hive management techniques as those agents be they chemical of any kind, are not present.

I could not say a beehive is management free unless it is entirely un-manipulated by human direct intervention.

just my own little two cent.

Big Bear

[BeeHopper]

The only chemical that I have introduced to the hive was essentially called a soft chemical ( Apiguard ). I stopped using it last year.  :)

[HAB]

Started the year using only FGMO Fog for Varoa Mites but found that the Russians didn't need any help controlling them.
Used West SHB Traps but found that my Russians were keeping them under control also, so haven't used them since July.
What a difference from last year when all my Italian hives were decimated by the one-two punch of SHB and Varoa. :)

[David LaFerney]

Some of you folks who have successfully never used anything need to come out with some details!  What kind, where did you get them, do you do anything different, etc...

[Michael Bush]

Well, I don't see what I'd pick.

I started in 1974 and because of the fear instilled by all the books treated with Terramycin syrup (which was what the books at the time recommended) the first year.  It seemed so wrong I quit by the second year.  I used no treatments whatsoever from then until 1999 (24 years).  By 1999 I had lost all my bees three times to Varroa and out of desperation I treated with Apistan.  I continued this until I lost all of them even after treating with Apistan in 2001.  I also started to try to regress them in 2001 but started too late to get very far with it.  In 2002 I used some FGMO with wintergreen on the top bars at first and later FGMO fog and finished up the year with Oxalic acid vapor.  I was also regressing.  There were very few mites.  In 2003 I finished up the year with oxalic acid vapor on some of the hives and nothing on the rest.  Again, not very many mites (one to two hundred at most per hive total killed by the oxalic).  I have not treated any of them with anything since.  So some of them have not been treated since 2002 and all of them not since 2003.  And the results are:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm

[bailey]

no chemicals here.
been keeping bees 3 years and building all the time.
up to close to 50 hives now.
all my stock is ferrel hives and swarms.
all from cutouts and swarm calls.

i think this survivor type stock is why i dont have many problems with
mites.
i am just begining to regress my bees and hope to get to mostly natural comb in the next few years.

so far no chemicals just a few sugar shakes early on, havent done one in 2 years.
i see very few deformed wing bees this year.

so far so good.
bailey.

[BjornBee]

In my understanding, 'treatment' is introducing an agent for the purpose of preventing or intervening in a health/illness situation.

Big Bear

Big Bear,
I understand the point you make. I think the difference is that you require an "agent" to be present for it to be called "treatment".

Here are some problems within hives. Each has a natural route, a chemical treatment option, and a non-chemical option (or at least one with no "agent")

1) a hive has AFB. a beekeeper has some choices....

a) Do nothing and let nature run it's course.
b) Treat with a chemical (terramycin)
c) Treat with no chemicals (shake bees on new comb/foundation)

Option C had no "agent" or chemical added. But was the hive "treated"? I would say yes.

a treatment is an action to achieve a healthier or positive result in hive health. And may include no agent. Sometimes it's just a modification or contolling a behavior.

2) a hive has mites.....

a) Do nothing and let nature run it's course.
b) Treat with chemicals.
c) Control a natural aspect of the hive, by installing drone comb and concentrating mites into these frames.

By modifying or controlling the behavior of the hive, in this case, concentrating where the mites will most likely be trapped in drone cells, you are "treating" the hive.

The swarming comments go far beyond thinking that it's "management". By delaying and controlling swarming (In this case, the supersede of the queen coupled with a brood break...both naturally happening in a swarm situation) you allow that process to happen on your terms, with the results being a lower mite level, through your actions, by doing summer splits and requeening.

Here would be a human example....

a guy has high triglycerides. He can....

a) Do nothing and let nature run it's course. (high blood pressure and diabetic)
b) Take "tricor" (a pill)
c) Be placed on a strict diet with a supervised exercise program.

Would it be wrong to suggest option three would be a "treatment", or to have someone suggest he is being "treated"?

I treat for AFB....with no chemicals. I treat for mites.....with no chemicals. It may not be with an "agent" or a chemical...but I am taking "action" to address a situation and better the health of my hives.

I think my comments were trying to distinguish the line between those who treat, and those who go "cold turkey" and pay the consequences. And for those that do "treat" bees, without placing chemicals in the hives, they are sending a mixed message to others. Most successful beekeepers, who use no chemicals, are using a wide range of items to give their bees advantages of overcoming issues.


So you have chemical treatments on one side, and doing absolutely nothing on the other. In the middle, is a wide range of "treatments"....or better yet, manipulations, behavior modifications, controll mechanism, and other "treatments".

Drone comb and shaking bees are forms of "treating"...without chemicals. But the advantages or manipulations to hive health are still there. To say they are NOT treatments, when they are accomplished for the sole act of better hive health, is in my book, is wrong. They are treatments.

Chemical free.....yes.

Treatment free....No.


Hope this helps.

[bigbearomaha]

I agree with what you are saying to a degree,

You are using a very broad definition of treatment that is generally correct to cover anything from inserting of chemicals to the manner in which one conducts a plan of action. ie.. "he gave them the kid glove treatment." along with "the medicine man offered a treatment of rest and a poultice for the wound", to " The doctor prescribed a penicillin treatment for the sores."

all three use the term "treatment", yet in each, the intent of the word is slightly different.

In terms of keeping like ideas clear and avoiding mis-understandings, I was only suggesting that "management techniques" be used  to differentiate from the way "treatment" is intended as in adding chemicals.

maybe I am just being nit-picky,  either way, it's all good.

Big Bear

[HAB]

And the results are:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm

Man, I wish our inspector would give us a written report.  He went through half of my twenty hives and just commented on how good they looked.