caging queen as varroa control

challenger · March 10, 2010, 10:19:49 PM

I am wondering how long before a queenless colony has a drone layer. It seems to me that it would be a great way to get rid of mites if one were to remove the queen and maybe 2 frames from a hive for a period of time to break the brood cycle. I imagine this is not practical due to the problems associated with leaving the hive queenless for long enough to have all the brood hatch out and left queenless until the phoretic mites are no longer reproductive.
Thanks-Howard

JP · March 11, 2010, 10:10:59 AM

I closed up a colony that had a decent mite load once for about 10-14 days, as an experiment to achieve the result you are contemplating.

They had feed but obvioulsly could not leave the hive. I made sure there was no brood.

When I opened them up mite counts were non-existent.

I figured with no brood to utlize the mite counts would drop.

I did not cage the queen, but you could. With a caged queen in your hive they should not create drone brood but you will need to go in now and then and clean up around her as the bees will build comb around the cage and attach it to other comb, etc...

BTW, if you have a caged queen in a hive where bees can leave, she obviously cannot lay but the bees will make you a ton of honey. I've seen this a number of times. I believe they simply go into survival mode, hence all the honey.

...JP

Finski · March 11, 2010, 10:39:13 AM

Old method is to take a laying queen off during main yield.
Bees raise a new queen and it will start to lay about same time as last workers emerge.

Now, when you put a larva frames from another hive, 90% of mites rush into that frame and you take it off.

JP · March 11, 2010, 10:43:45 AM

Quote from: Finski on March 11, 2010, 10:39:13 AM
Old method is to take a laying queen off during main yield.
Bees raise a new queen and it will start to lay about same time as last workers emerge.

Now, when you put a larva frames from another hive, 90% of mites rush into that frame and you take it off.

Now that sounds like a very good trick.

...JP

Somerford · March 11, 2010, 11:44:41 AM

It is a useful and 'low impact' way of coping with varroa. Alot of 'eco beekeepers' do it - although they are the ones who are happy to destroy the brood because some refuse to do that.

I belive the frame cages are available from Thornes in the UK although they might not do one to fit the standard frames in the US.

Anyone who is handy with a piece of slotted queen excluder and a soldering iron or has nimble fingers to wire them together, could easily make one themselves.

The trick is to ensure all the brood is arranged so that the youngest is nearest the empty brood frame (either side) and then as you move outwards, the older brood is there - as the bees emerge, this helps the varroa to 'migrate' towards the centre frame with the trapped queen.

You can remove the caged frame once all the larvae are sealed, then replace with another empty cell frame as it will take 25 days to make sure all varroa are enticed to the caged area, allowing for all other bees to emerge if that makes sense.

Upsides - easy with a little thought and patience. 90% kill rate or maybe more.

Downsides - you end up restricting the queen for a month and therefore the strength of the hive suffers. Obviously not all mites are trapped, nor can it prevent varroa from returning in the same season. Lastly, not very nice to have to dispose of the sealed brood, simply from an ethical standpoint for some people.

UK - we use a mixture of chemical methods (ApiGuard Thymol crystals), Fluvalinate (Bayvarol / Apistan although there is some resistance to these now). Oxalic acid trickling is gaining popularity and this is what I used in January to get a huge mite kill, probably nearing 99% in most cases, although this process isn't officially approved by the UK ag depts, it is common place in Europe.

regards

S

Michael Bush · March 12, 2010, 04:22:21 AM

I can be as short as two weeks without brood. Being queenless is not the cause of laying workes, being broodless is the main cause. So once there is no open brood you have about two to three weeks.

challenger · March 12, 2010, 11:33:58 AM

Given all this great feedback on this topic it seems to me that isolating the queen is a great way to combat varroa. Why do I feel like I am still missing something-I've never read a single thing on this idea-only that splits are very helpfull in lowering mite levels. Please fill me in on where I am not seeing the logic.
Howard

doak · March 12, 2010, 12:03:01 PM

You just answered your own question.

You seem to be saying that if you had read it a number of times you would come closer to thinking it would work. Where as, The fact that the ideas and suggestions from this site or others that is not in copyrighted print is harder to comprehend. Why? :)
doak

Somerford · March 12, 2010, 01:36:20 PM

The reason possibly is that it was seen as a non-invasive method when varroa first became a proble, but has been superceded by more effective chemical control that gives a bigger knockdown % and doesn't interrupt the brood laying of the queen - hence the oxalic method happens in late Dec/early Jan in the Uk when there is a minimum of brood in the hive and most if not all mites will be on the bees.

However it does have a place and there is no harm in trying it out to compare with your preferred method eh ??

regards

S

challenger · March 12, 2010, 08:13:43 PM

No, not really. I suppose in my mind I was thinking the removal of the queen would have a much greater impact on the varroa count than those with experience in doing so claim it has. I am going to try it this Aug on a few hives in place of my usual "home brew" of essential oils applied to the hives 6 days apart for three applications. This has been a very effective treatment so I will do some comparison.
As for Oxalic acid I know it is not legally sold in this form but wood bleach is the same stuff. I was thinking of looking deeper into this application as well as vaporized vinegar.
Thanks-Howard

Quote from: doak on March 12, 2010, 12:03:01 PM
You just answered your own question.

You seem to be saying that if you had read it a number of times you would come closer to thinking it would work. Where as, The fact that the ideas and suggestions from this site or others that is not in copyrighted print is harder to comprehend. Why? :)
doak

Grid · March 13, 2010, 07:51:25 AM

I have heard of a simple varroa control method that breaks the brood cycle. I couldn't do it though.

After the main honey flow, make splits from every hive and let them raise their own queens. These will be your over-wintering hives. Letting them raise their own queens breaks the varroa cycle, and you get new queens going into winter.

The parent hives with the original queens are left alone. Take all of their honey. Let them die. This is the part I could not do.

Grid.

Acebird · September 15, 2016, 09:08:12 AM

Quote from: Grid on March 13, 2010, 07:51:25 AM

The parent hives with the original queens are left alone. Take all of their honey. Let them die. This is the part I could not do.

Grid.

If you don't take all their honey you might find out what lives. They would be survivors like feral bees. You might want to split these hives again the following season. And low and behold it could happen again no harm done if it doesn't.

MikeyN.C. · September 15, 2016, 10:47:08 PM

From what I've read , I thought that you take a piece of #8 wire and make a small cage 2" x 2" and just trap queen on the frame, they will feed her right ?

Dallasbeek · September 16, 2016, 12:57:17 AM

Mikey, you really pulled up an oldie but goodie. Interesting.

monarchis · September 16, 2016, 02:51:25 AM

I "caging" my queens with queen excluder in foundationless frames in Summer's nectars flow for 24 days. I harvesting the honey and and give back the frames to the hives. After that I use oxalic acid.

bwallace23350 · September 16, 2016, 09:09:25 AM

So let me get this straight. The mites only attack the new larva and queen and don't really bother mature bees all that much?

Acebird · September 16, 2016, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: bwallace23350 on September 16, 2016, 09:09:25 AM
So let me get this straight. The mites only attack the new larva and queen and don't really bother mature bees all that much?

I wouldn't say that. They dissolve the exoskeleton of the adult bee and suck nutrients from the bee until they get a chance to find a brood cell with royal jelly to start the reproductive cycle.

texanbelchers · September 16, 2016, 03:04:53 PM

It is not related to the adult bees or the queen. They reproduce on the larva in capped cells and seem to prefer or multiply more in drone brood.

Caging the queen means no eggs and no larva, therefore no place for them to reproduce. The drawback is that no eggs and no larva also means no new bees.

So, cage the queen for 2 weeks and you will have a point when there is no capped brood. The theory goes that as soon as there is larva, the mites all rush in. This "overloads" the larva, killing it and the mites. So, you loose at least 3 weeks of bees, but also knock the mites down.

Depending on how you handle brood, splits provide a similar benefit with a new queen.

I think a better bet would be to cage the queen for 18 days, let her lay and 6 days later (day 24) hit them with 1 round of OAV. All the drones should be emerged and the new larva are about to be capped.

Acebird · September 16, 2016, 05:29:06 PM

Quote from: texanbelchers on September 16, 2016, 03:04:53 PM
I think a better bet would be to cage the queen for 18 days, let her lay and 6 days later (day 24) hit them with 1 round of OAV. All the drones should be emerged and the new larva are about to be capped.

Are you saying that because the queen would be contained in a small area these larvae would be over run with mites diving in and kill the larvae along with the mites in the process? Can these larvae even exist if nurse bees cannot tend to them due to the cage?

texanbelchers · September 16, 2016, 10:05:07 PM

Cage the queen such that there are no eggs, like a queen clip. From what I understand push in cages are not reliable, especially over 2 weeks.

I suppose the mite overload theory would apply if there was a limited amount of brood. I haven't seen any studies, only references in OTS queen rearing and various websites.

My question is what stops the mites from staying phoretic when the dead larva is removed; what says that the original mite doesn't start the process all over again. Hence the OAV knock out suggestion instead.