No foundations, Bees not following guides

[Greg watkevich]

I installed 2 packages 5/3/2010.  Inspected hive on 5/7/2010 to remove queen cages. Queens released in both, but bees are building comb at an angle rather than down from the beveled top bars.  Wasn't sure what to do, but decided it had comb had to be removed sooner or later so I cut out all the new comb and mended with string to the top bar in alignment and hope the bees will get the idea.  With all the havoc in removing all the new comb and replacing it,  I have no idea if I the queens is still in the hive or if they will start building comb from the starter strips properly. If anyone has experienced this, I'd like to hear about your approach or solution.

Thanks,
Greg Watkevich

[Kathyp]

on occasion you'll get a hive that draws wonky comb.  they will sometimes even do it with full foundation.  however....the most common reason they do it is that the frames are not pushed tightly together and there is to much space.  if the space is wrong, they will fill it.  push all frames tightly together toward the middle and leave any extra space on the sides.

things may not be perfect.  i will sometimes slice through a bit of messed up comb and not completely remove it.  as long as i can pull the frames,  it's good with me.  if they are make such a mess that you can't get into the hive, that's a problem that needs to be fixed.

[harvey]

probably not much help but I just started two packages on frames with no foundation.  They are building really nice comb.  Clean, straight and all that.  I did put in two fully drawn and capped combs of honey.  One to give them good feed while they built out there comb and second as a guide.  Seems to have worked so far the comb is straight and they are building like gang busters.  I have never seen bees draw comb so fast!  I figure once they eat the honey I will remove the old drawn combs and replace with a couple more foundationless frames.  If the queen starts laying in the old comb before she does the new comb I might try and make a nuc?

[kbfarms]

Did you level your hive?

[Greg watkevich]

I did level the hives, but didn't have a frame of honey to put in each hive to give them a a guideline for starting.  I believe that would have helped. The bees had built 3 or 4 rows of comb where the queen cage was placed.  They built the comb at about a 45 degree angle to the frames and about 4 frames were connected.  All the frames are now installed and pushed together.  I don't want to disturb them again right away, but need advice on what to do next if they continue to build comb across the frames.

Grege Watkevich

[Michael Bush]

Get at least the outside ones in a frame.  Cut them loose if that's what it takes and rubber band them into the frames.  If you get some straight they will build the new ones paralell.  If you leave them cross ways, they will build the new ones paralell...

[Greg watkevich]

Michael,
I did cut out the cross comb friday and I mended the comb by using heavy string to hold the comb in alignment to the starter bevel.  Its been to cold to open up the hive this weekend, because we have had frost the last couple days and tonight as well, daytime temps in 40's.  They are taking syrup. Should I leave the comb mended as is.  If they build more cross comb, what should be done next.  Not sure how long I could continue to cut out comb before I loose the bees.  Thanks for you input.
Greg Watkevich

[Michael Bush]

One straight comb leads to another.

[TheMasonicHive]

I'd really be interested to see what you mean when you say to use a rubber band to hold them together.  That just seems like it wouldn't work hahaha.

I'm sure it will, but do you have any pictures of rubber banding MB?  This year I'm using foundation, next year I'm going to do an experimental hive where I try foundationless, so these techniques are things I'd love to know as I'm sure others would too!

[Kathyp]

look in the removal section.  it's how we hold the cutout comb into the frames.  it works well if you get in banded in straight. 

[Kathyp]

thought i'd add....checked one of the swarms i'd picked up.  one had a couple of frames with foundation.  they have built comb on top of the foundation and connected it to the next sheet.  some hives are just like that.......

[Greg watkevich]

It's chilly out but just checked hives to see what was going on.  After mending the hives friday.  I had to see what was going on.  I didnt have any elastic bands to do the mend so used heavy string.  Not the best thing.  A couple small peices of comb fell off while checking , but it appears to have strightened out their comb buiding.  I noticed new comb being built paralell to the comb I mended in.  Hopefully they understand bee space. My concern now is that they secure the mended comb and make it sturdy. 
Thank you
Greg Watkevich

[Michael Bush]

You brush off the bees, cut the comb loose, put it in the frame, and put rubber bands around the frame vertically with the comb in the middle of the rubber band and the frame.  The rubber band just keeps the comb from falling out.  The stress of the rubber band is on the frame.

[KD4MOJ]

This thread probably should be moved to the top bar section...

...DOUG
KD4MOJ

[Greg watkevich]

Going to leave them alone until next week and check progress.  I don't want to continually disturb them.  Not sure about how often the hive can be disturbed before it becomes a problem.
Greg Watkevich

[Greg watkevich]

Not using top bar hives. Standard 10 frame deeps.
G Watkevich

[KD4MOJ]

No problem Greg... just you said "beveled top bars" and it seemed like you were talking about TBH's. I have them on my mind lately since I'm currently building one, albeit slowly!

...DOUG
KD4MOJ