Neonicotinoides Duhh!

[MrILoveTheAnts]

Translocation of Neonicotinoid Insecticides From Coated Seeds to Seedling Guttation Drops: A Novel Way of Intoxication of Bees

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/Girolami.pdf

Abstract: The death of honey bees, Apis mellifera L., and the consequent colony collapse disorder causes major losses in agriculture and plant pollination worldwide. The phenomenon showed increasing rates in the past year, although it causes and still awaiting a clear answer. Although neonicotinoid systematic insecticides used for seed coating of agricultural crops were suspected as possible reason, studies so far have not shown the existence of unquestionable sources capable of delivering directly intoxication doses in the fields. Guttation is a natural plant phenomenon causing the excretion of xylem fluid at leaf margins. Here, we show that leaf guttation drops of all the corn plant germinated from neonicotinoid0coated seeds contained amounts of insecticide constantly higher than 10 mg/1, with maxima up to 100 mg/1 for thiamethoxam and clothianidin, and up to 200 mg/1 for imidacloprid. The concentration of neonicotinoides in guttation drops can be nearly those of active ingredients commonly applied in field sprays for pest control, or even higher. When bees consume guttation drops, collected from plants grown from neonicotinoid-coated seeds, they encounter death within few minutes.

http://awalkabout.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/corn_field339213037_std.jpg
Let me paint the scenario for you. Your a honey bee collecting pollen. It's hot out, you want something to drink but you're stuck in the middle of a cornfield quite literally as far as the eye can see. All there is to drink are droplets of guttation from at the tips to the leaves of the corn you've been working. Is it covered in poison... who knows? But it's the only thing you have to drink.

http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/cropmajor.html
Back in 2000, US Corn was our number 1 crop grown in 72.7 Million Acres in the US. It is a 15.1 Billion Dollar a year crop. Granted that number includes Grain but come on, it's Corn!

[bee-nuts]

What I would like to see is a detailed study of say 100 beekeepers that are each followed by a researcher who studies the surroundings, what the bees are working and what how and see if there is a pattern to CCD onset.  I have heard that Commercial beeks are effected more often.  There could be countless reasons for this if it s true.  For one if its viral the more bees in an area, the more you are exposed.  If its monculture and pesticides than pollinators will take the biggest hits.  Who knows what it is but if it were viral they should have found it by now.  Will they figure it out or will it remain a mystery?  Does some pesticide company already know but are too greedy to take the product of the shelf?  Did this exist since mites have spread across the county only now being realized?

[MrILoveTheAnts]

Ok this "But You Never Know" attitude has to stop. I don't want to hear theories.

The cause of CCD is someone with a public feeder that has poison in it. How is that different than the corn theory?

[luvin honey]

Ok this "But You Never Know" attitude has to stop. I don't want to hear theories.

The cause of CCD is someone with a public feeder that has poison in it. How is that different than the corn theory?

MrIlove... Don't you have another thread going on this very topic?

I think people are theorizing since we don't KNOW what causes CCD. New problems have lots and lots of theories or hypotheses that must be tested. I don't know what's going on with bee research, but it would not surprise me if there is not a ton of research dollars out there to throw at the problem...

[MrILoveTheAnts]

Ok let me take CCD out of the picture for a moment.

The most farmed crop in our country found in almost every state is being treated with a poison that has the potential to kill all the foraging bees in a hive. And we're okay with this? Like how is this at least not contributing to the problem?

[Kathyp]

Ok this "But You Never Know" attitude has to stop. I don't want to hear theories

this was the thinking that stopped the use of DDT.  we MAY have saved a few birds, but millions of people died.  this was done with no proof that DDT was the culprit in the death of birds, and to this day it's not been proved.  we did know that malaria killed lots of people.....

always a good idea to know what's causing a problem before you try to fix it.

why have there been reports of CCD  like occurrences going back to the 1800s?  same cause? probably not.  when something lasts that long and re-occurs, it seems a more likely cause is a  virus, or bacteria.  that's not to say that we are not doing something to contribute.  if we are in some way making the bees more susceptible to disease, that would certainly be a concern.

may i also point out that many of the reports of CCD come from beekeepers who haul their bees to pollinate crops.  no beekeeper would haul to pollinate corn.  even if some corn were around, it would not be the bees choice.  water in farm country is all around....unless the govt cuts it of to save some sucker fish....

[AllenF]

This is from wiki about dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane

is toxic to a wide range of animals in addition to insects. It is highly toxic to aquatic life, including crayfish, daphnids, sea shrimp and many species of fish. It is less toxic to mammals, but may be moderately toxic to some amphibian species, especially in the larval stages. Most famously, it is a reproductive toxicant for certain birds species, and it is a major reason for the decline of the bald eagle,[6] brown pelican[35] peregrine falcon, and osprey.[1] Birds of prey, waterfowl, and song birds are more susceptible to eggshell thinning than chickens and related species, and DDE appears to be more potent than DDT.[1]

The biological mechanism for the thinning is not entirely known, but there is strong evidence that p,p'-DDE inhibits calcium ATPase in the membrane of the shell gland and reduces the transport of calcium carbonate from blood into the eggshell gland. This results in a dose-dependent reduction in eggshell thickness.[1][36][37][38] There is also evidence that o,p'-DDT disrupts the development of the female reproductive tract, thereby impairing the quality of the eggshells produced by the bird once it matures.[39] Multiple mechanisms may be at work, or different mechanisms may operate in different species.[1] Some studies have shown that although DDE levels have fallen dramatically, eggshell thickness remains 10–12 percent thinner than before DDT was first used.[40]

I did not paste all the references for the proof.

[Kathyp]

the actual studies don't prove the theory.  DDT was banned after we all were brought to tears by Rachel Carson's Silent Spring .  there was no science involved.  even though scientist (the real kind) argued that there were many other potential culprits in the diminishing hawk populations, none were as compelling to the emerging tree-hugging movements arguments against MAN.  consider all the pollutants of the 60's. if could have been anything, or any combination of things, or something like a virus....
no, better to blame man, and sacrifice lives on the alter to mother earth.......

ahh, those were the days.  trippin on acid with flowers in our hair.  we were going to freeze to death, run out of oil, starve, or tip the earth over with excess population. do you know that we are all supposed to be dead now?

[AllenF]

Half of those people are dead now.

[MrILoveTheAnts]

Right but how do we know this die off is caused by the same thing that happed well back in the 1800's? I think there's enough evidence to at least see what happens when we remove neonicotinoids from the picture if only from an area to see what happens. In the study I cited they say there is a correlation between the planting of corn and when the die offs occur in the spring. The Guttation in corn happens most often during the first 3 to 4 weeks of the plant's growth, but frankly plants that do this aren't well known, and Corn might not be the only culprit. I'm sure Guttation must happen in other plants as well.

Also who can control what their hives work within the 6 miles they fly away? I don't want my bees taking old soda from the recycling bins around town but it happens very often. I don't want them robbing from other hives and that still happens. If it's food they'll take it. Pollen is fed to the brood and a priority to foraging bees.

If this chemical can seep out in guttation then can it also seep out in the thin layer of sap that normally covers the plant? Cherry trees in particular have pours on them that drop a sweet liquid (intended to attract ants) and I occasionally see a bee sipping at it if it's collected on the plant enough. Unopened flowers to peonies, and trumpet vine are covered in a sweet sap that ants love. Would chemicals have made this thin layer outside the flower toxic? Is the flower itself toxic to the touch by bees? Plants naturally shed off their cells, it's how the Monarch butterfly "smells" it's host plant (Milkweed). How much poison is being lifted off into the air from natural plant shedding?

Let's say a caterpillar nibbles at a plant with this poison in it. Sure the caterpillar dies but now there's a hole in the plant leaking this poison out into the world.


I agree a study needs to be done where we fallow some beekeepers around. 30 would do it, 100 would be better. And measure how well they do based on what the bees work. The trouble is that's to much data to take in. It would need to be simpler and I hate to say this but the best option would be spray neonicotinoids onto an organic farm that didn't spray anything else for the rest of the season. That way the hives could be stationary and if nothing else we could try eliminating this stress by travel idea.

[MrILoveTheAnts]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/7778401/Mobile-phones-responsible-for-disappearance-of-honey-bee.html

This got me rolling my eyes. "Mobile phones responsible for disappearance of honey bee"

Because you know how those Amish love using their cell phones.

[AllenF]

Now when they used the phones in the hives for 15 minutes a day, did they talk to the bees, or just left the phone to ring the whole time?  I would like to see more on the study.  I wonder what they said to the bees with the cellphones?

[luvin honey]

MrIlove--I'm all for heirloom and hybrid crops instead of GMO, and definitely for organic production versus using chemicals.

However, we have had GMOs around for a fair bit now, I do NOT see my bees working the crops around their hives (not the corn and soybeans, anyway) and there are so many, many variables out there.

I don't think people are arguing that this is a possibility, just that this is THE answer. As I believe I may have mentioned in your other thread on this topic, it seems to me that most problems in life have more than one variable...

And as for your idea of spraying an organic farm with neonicotinoids, well I'm going to assume you're joking :) It is a LOT of work and a fair amount of money to get certified organic, and I doubt anybody is giving that up for the sake of research.

[bee-nuts]

For the record, I have seen bees work corn when it tassels out like crazy for its pollen.  This is probably not very noticeable on a 100 acre field but it you have a few rows in your garden and no crop corn near you will notice it if you pay attention.

[Kathyp]

i have too.  that's much later that what he's talking about, but they do seem to like that pollen.  that's about all there is other than squash at that time of the summer.

[caticind]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/7778401/Mobile-phones-responsible-for-disappearance-of-honey-bee.html

This got me rolling my eyes. "Mobile phones responsible for disappearance of honey bee"

Because you know how those Amish love using their cell phones.

And because we put a cell phone in one of two hives, and OMG that one died!   :roll:  Because that's statistically significant, and there's not a significant percentage of hive loss from other causes annually ALREADY.

[bee-nuts]

i have too.  that's much later that what he's talking about, but they do seem to like that pollen.  that's about all there is other than squash at that time of the summer.

That depends on your location.  We have start thistle in full bloom, at least last year anyway.  I just stated it as a fact because they do work corn.  Whether the pollen is contaminated or not I dont know but if the corn borers die from eating the corn, I dont see how the pollen can be much safer.  That said I did not notice any problems last year with 60 acres right next to a yard.  However they had white clover, and star thistle to work, and some alfalfa for a short period.  the only time I saw dead bees in front of my hives was in spring when they sprayed round up which is not supposed to hurt the bees.

[luvin honey]

For the record, I have seen bees work corn when it tassels out like crazy for its pollen.  This is probably not very noticeable on a 100 acre field but it you have a few rows in your garden and no crop corn near you will notice it if you pay attention.

Well, cool beans! The conventional corn around the hives is non-GMO and the garden corn is organic non-GMO. I really DID look closely, but perhaps the raspberries were better looking.... My girls also ignored the boatloads of non-hybrid sunflowers I planted for them!