Starting out with Foundationless frames

[OzBuzz]

Hi Everybody,

In spring i want to start using foundationless frames - now i'm aware of how to set them up - that's not my problem. What i am wondering is how should they be placed in a hive so that the comb is nicely drawn out within the frames? obviously i cant go putting 8 foundationless frames in a honey super above a brood box and expect it to be drawn out beautifully - or is it that easy?

[fermentedhiker]

it can be :) or not. All you can really do is pull a couple of already nicely drawn frames from somewhere or a frame with foundation if you don't have any drawn comb and put it in the center.  It provides a ladder for the bees to cluster from and acts a little bit as a guide for getting them to draw straight.  After that it's up to the bees.  It's a good idea to check their progress early on so you can fix any wild comb before it gets to be too much of a mess.

[BjornBee]

A couple things.....

1)If you put a box of foundationless frames above a full box of bees, and one box of foundation below the box of brood, the bees will almost ALWAYS draw the box above the already filled box. It is instinct that the bees start at the top and work down. It also has to do with the bees taking advantage of the trapped heat at the top, which makes drawing comb and other aspects of brood rearing much easier.

2) If you only place a box of foundationless above the brood chamber, especially when a heavy flow is happening, the bees may make honey storage cells, which may be in conflict with your desire to have them draw brood comb.

3) If you want to have the bees draw brood comb, the best place may be forcing them to draw comb below the existing brood chamber, like the features and benefits of the Warre hive protocol. Meaning the full brood box is placed on top and the bees have no place to build except below the existing box, and usually this will be worker cells.

You can also checkerboard in foundationless frames between existing drawn comb. But there are limitations early spring. And sometimes you get bulging of one side in the corners if the frames of existing comb has open nectar.

Much depends on seasonality timing, flow, what the bees desire and need, etc. And it comes down to what you are trying to achieve. Certainly the bees will draw comb by slapping on a foundationless box above the brood chamber. But it may not have the outcome of brood/natural/smaller cells that you originally wanted. You can't do what really comes down to "supering" with a box of foundationless frames above the brood chamber, and then expect not to have drone and honey storage sized cells.

I've been there, and done that...... ;)

[Michael Bush]

The other issue is thickness.  If you alternate uncapped honey combs (in the super) and foundationless they tend to fatten the drawn comb instead of drawing new comb.  If you alternate foundation and foundationless they tend to draw the foundationless fat and ignore the foudnation.  If you do the same in a brood nest they draw them all the same thickness and it works very well.  If  you put one foundation (or one drawn comb) in a super it seems to work best that way only one comb may end up fat and the rest will probably be in the frames.

[OzBuzz]

Thanks guys for all of your feedback - it's much appreciated...

My situation is that i have one hive - at the moment it is just the brood chamber as we're in winter so i've tucked the babies in for the night...

A friend has asked me to make a hive up for them - as part of the package i'm making a brood chamber and a honey super both with foundationless comb. Obviously i won't be doing anything until spring.

I don't want to impact too heavily on the numbers in my hive in spring but from the sounds of things the easiest thing to do will, essentially, be a split.

So if i took 4 brood frames from my hive and between those put foundationless frames in a new hive body then that would be the split i would make for my friend leaving 4 frames of brood and 4 frames of foundationless comb in my hive. Then, once both hives have rebuilt their numbers i could add a super of foundationless comb above both hives for the honey supers. I would add a queen to the split rather than wait for them to rear their own and i would also retain my queen in my hive as i want to raise some queens from her hopefully...

How big an impact would removing four frames of brood from a hive have on their numbers and their ability to store honey over the season? In my neck of the woods we're going to be having a flow of River Red Gum which is supposed to be exceptional for pollen and nectar...