Questions on Small Cell and feral bees

[Stlnifr]

If you catch a swarm of bees off a bee tree would these bees be small cell builders I know they will be called natural cell if no foundation is used but would they be building cells 4.9 or less in the brood comb? How many years do they need to be surviving on there on to be classed as feral bees and be considered survivor bees? When they make there home in a tree I consider them Feral Bees and if they are still here next year I consider them survivor bees, would I be correct on my assumptions?

It is hard to know if the bees in a tree are original from year to year or if they have died out and another swarm moved in.

But I at least know where three bee trees are and am really hoping to put out swarm traps and hope for the best of some setting up residence in at least one trap.

[bigbearomaha]

well, if you catch a swarm in a tree, they could be from some area beekeepers hive using traditional foundation and likely will draw the same size cells/comb when starting new nest.

If you are doing a cut out of a nest in a tree that has been established there for a few generations, chances aren't too bad they have regressed on their own.

If it's a new nest from an "escaped" swarm, odds are good much of the comb is similar to what they drew out in beekeepers hive they originated from.

personally, I call them escapees if it is a swarm I suspect from a local beeks hives.

If I suspect they have lived outside of beek management for at least one season,  I personally consider them feral now.

that may just bee me though.

Big Bear

[Joelel]

If you catch a swarm of bees off a bee tree would these bees be small cell builders I know they will be called natural cell if no foundation is used but would they be building cells 4.9 or less in the brood comb? How many years do they need to be surviving on there on to be classed as feral bees and be considered survivor bees? When they make there home in a tree I consider them Feral Bees and if they are still here next year I consider them survivor bees, would I be correct on my assumptions?

It is hard to know if the bees in a tree are original from year to year or if they have died out and another swarm moved in.

But I at least know where three bee trees are and am really hoping to put out swarm traps and hope for the best of some setting up residence in at least one trap.

It depends on what breed of feral bees they are. A feral bee is a wild bee not kept by man, any breed. There are different size feral bees according to their breed. Most bees would build between a 4.9 and 5.4 and would not be a regressed bee. The only time bees will stay regressed is when they are forced to build on 4.9 foundations. Survivor bees are not always feral or kept by man. Survivor bees are a breed or cross breed that are resistant to disease and pests rather kept by man or are feral.

[David McLeod]

I somewhat addressed this in a recent post to the removal page. Unfortunately it did not garner any responses.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,30530.0.html

I'm curious as to what others are seeing in the ferals being removed, specifically type of bee and speculation as to ancestry.
I see two types in metro atlanta and for lack of better definition I refer to them as true ferals and recent escapees. The first is a smaller bee and is not bright yellow but darker with the banding being pale tan and narrow. These colonies are always the ones "that were there last year" or "they've been there awhile". When I get into them the comb is dark, especially the brood and gives every indication of having been there awhile. Evidence of wax moths is either non existant or very old and often to one side where  an even older colony once existed but never in the current comb. I have yet to see SHB in these colonies irregardless of where they are found. Cell size, while not measured, is obviously smaller to the eye and is often quite consistant appearing as neat as if drawn on good foundation. These bees are as gentle as any I've ever touched and defensive reactions are the exception not the norm and stings only occur as a result of tangling in clothing or some other blunder on my part. The interesting thing I note is a small compact brood nest and not what I would call a boomer colony just boiling over with bees but a solid strong colony. Behavior on the comb is good not being runny but instead tending to hold to the comb and even to the point of hiding out between combs.
The others are what I refer to as recent escapees. These look like the classic bright yellow italians and almost always "just moved in" or even "saw them move in". The comb is always new or lighter colored and is often in a cavity with evidence of recent colony failures and wax moth damage right in the area of the comb. These ladies will be larger as is the cell size. Comb will be more variable as well with drone and worker all on the same comb. Temper can be a little warmer though not mean by any measure. Some of these can be boomers on into the season and production can be higher than the ferals. Strangley these can be a little more runny than the ferals, and I thought italians didn't show that trait. Not excessively so like the "dutch bees" I remember from my youth just slighty more active enough to be noticable. I am far more likely to find these bees to be either crashing or recently crashed than the ferals.
Neither are heavy propolizers though the ferals are more so but not enough that I would complain about it.
I can only speculate as the their genetic history but if I had to take a shot in the dark I would say that the recent escapees are the "standard" italian production stock (btw, in most of these cases I can usually locate a nearby beek if I ask about it) and the ferals are a total shot in the dark but I would guess strong influence of the carniolan possibly caucasian based upon color and traits, though I am quite sure there is a strong background of the italian and prior "dutch" before that. Whatever the heinz mix is it must be working for them.
So I'll open it up and listen to what y'all are seeing out there.

To expound on the original question.
IMO opinion the smaller ferals would without a doubt construct the same small cell if left to their own devices. I am not sure what they would do if moved onto standard large cell foundation. I wonder if anyone has tried this, btw.
The recent escapees would construct either large cell or some intermediate size depending on just how long they had been in the escaped state.

[David McLeod]

As far as "survivor stock" goes I consider neither to be until proven. I assume that what I consider "true ferals" to be survivors and as such worthy of saving for future consideration. The recent escapees may be survivors given enough time.
IMO, what happens with the recent escapees is all dependant upon the next swarm season. If they survive the first winter following establishment to throw a swarm then it is what the virgin queen brings back from her nuptial flight that will determine the fate of the colony as to whether they become survivors or not. Again, JMO.

[JP]

If given the opportunity they all will build natural cell which will give you varying cell sizes. Not all bees are created equal some larger than others but I have noticed in my removals the ones that have been there a very long time do seem to be smaller.

The oldest one I did the man said they had been living in his ceiling for fifteen yrs.

They were very, very small bees.


...JP

[Stlnifr]

The bees in the three bee trees are very small bees two trees the bees are brown and the third tree they are black. I guess they are a mixture or mutts. I would say they are feral by the color and size they are nowhere as big as the Italians I have seen in the past. These bees are deep in the river swamp the nearest residence would be more than 10 miles the way the crow flies.

[hardwood]

I have a 1000 year old colony that can only be seen through a microscope :-D

Scott

[VolunteerK9]

I have a 1000 year old colony that can only be seen through a microscope :-D

Scott

hmm, my 750 year old colony are the size of sweat bees.  :-D

[David McLeod]

The bees in the three bee trees are very small bees two trees the bees are brown and the third tree they are black. I guess they are a mixture or mutts. I would say they are feral by the color and size they are nowhere as big as the Italians I have seen in the past. These bees are deep in the river swamp the nearest residence would be more than 10 miles the way the crow flies.

What's the temperment of these dark ladies. If they are indeed as isolated as you suggest I wonder if they might be remnants of the "dutch" or german bee that was in use prior to the italians. I would like to see a dutch bee again if for no other reason than to see if are as still as nasty I as recall.

[Michael Bush]

>If you catch a swarm of bees off a bee tree would these bees be small cell builders I know they will be called natural cell if no foundation is used but would they be building cells 4.9 or less in the brood comb?

Odds are if they are from a domestic hive they are the same as a package of bees you might buy, raised on 5.4mm

> How many years do they need to be surviving on there on to be classed as feral bees and be considered survivor bees?

If they make it a couple of winters they are probably good stock.  But the other issue you brought up is size.  A swarm that moves from a hive into a tree will probably 5.1mm and will continue to be that size for some time as shrinkage from cocoons takes a very long time.

> When they make there home in a tree I consider them Feral Bees and if they are still here next year I consider them survivor bees, would I be correct on my assumptions?

One winter is a good indication.  Two is better.  It depends on how you want to define "survivor" but I wouldn't count any that didn't make it through at least a winter.

[Stlnifr]

But the other issue you brought up is size.  a swarm that moves from a hive into a tree will probably 5.1mm and will continue to be that size for some time as shrinkage from cocoons takes a very long time.

So would this be a good indicator that they have been on there own for awhile? They are indeed very small bees.

[Stlnifr]

What's the temperament of these dark ladies. If they are indeed as isolated as you suggest I wonder if they might be remnants of the "dutch" or german bee that was in use prior to the italians. I would like to see a dutch bee again if for no other reason than to see if are as still as nasty I as recall.

I have no idea of there temperament. I have crawled up close to the hive on my stomach and have taken some pictures and a video of the bee trees with the bees on the outside of the entrance and bees coming and going.

They do not look as robust as Italians nor as pretty due to there size but they are definitely honey bees.  They kind of remind you of a house fly.

One other question: if the bees that are considered hot bees are on large cell foundation and apparently this isn't natural and they are regressed and working natural comb would they be any milder?

I hope to catch a swarm from these bees come spring and then I will be able to photograph them up close and will be able to tell there temperament.

[Michael Bush]

>So would this be a good indicator that they have been on there own for awhile? They are indeed very small bees.

Yes.  Size is a good indicator.  They would have to either be in the same place long enough for the cocoons to shrink the cell size or swarmed enough times to go through enough regression from building a new nest from slightly smaller bees to get there.  Either way it's probably several years.