Lawn chemicals

[tillie]

I'm going to be the beekeeper at a bed and breakfast in the middle of Atlanta.  The owner wrote me worrying that the chemicals used by her lawn company would kill the bees.....duh.....

Here's what they use:   lesoco 3way herbicide:
ACTIVE INGREDIENTS:
Dimethylamine Salt of 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic Acid* ............................................... 30.56%
Dimethylamine Salt of 2-(2-methyl-4-Chlorophenoxy)propionic Acid* ........................... 16.34%
Dimethylamine Salt of Dicamba (3,6-Dichloro-o-anisic Acid) *** ..................................... 2.77%
INERT INGREDIENTS ... 50.33%
TOTAL ... 100.00%

and Lesco stonewall premergent and Lesco dry fert 32-5/7

I imagine she could find a lawn company that uses more environmentally friendly chemicals (are there such?) or I could encourage her to ask the company to do her lawn after dark (fat chance) so that the bees would be in the hive.

Any other thoughts?

Linda T in Atlanta

[Countryboy]

The main thing you need to worry about is when they apply insecticides while nectar plants are in bloom.  Herbicides are to kill weeds, but insecticides kill bugs like bees.

The first one is 2,4-D.  It's a broadleaf killer.
I don't recognize the other two salts.

A pre-emergent is applied to soil to kill weeds before they make it out of the ground.  This can be applied to bare soil.

The 32-5-7 dry fertilizer is 32% nitrogen, 5% phosphorus, and 7% potassium.  The other 56% is inert ingredients.  They will apply this very lightly, as with 32% nitrogen it can easily burn plants and turn them brown.  If you have ever seen someone's yard get burned brown, it was likely a nitrogen burn.  Nitrogen stimulates green leafy growth, but too much will burn plants brown.

I would worry if they have flowerbeds and spray anything on the flowers to keep the bugs off.

Here is a list of common dangerous and safer chemicals to be used around bees.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/pests/e494w.htm

[AllenF]

The hives are going to be out of the grass area, right?  Where are you going to place the hives?   The bees are not going to be hitting that yard much with no weeds in it and the grass kept cut by the landscaper.  

[Vance G]

Those are all herbicides.  They will not be harmful to the bees applied as directed.  Definately make sure to impress on her you need to  know about any pesticide usage around your hive. 

[hardwood]

Great link Countryboy...thanks :)

Tillie, it's been my experience that landscape tenders apply lots of herbicides and fertilizers in a broadcast system but when it comes to pesticides it's more of a spot treatment unless there's an all out war being waged. It's great that you are informing yourself but probably more important that the owner and the landscape crew are informed and let know that you are keeping vigil.

Scott

[tillie]

Thanks, everyone.  I feel more reassured.  The hives are going to be behind a second guesthouse where the caretaker lives and not in the yard proper.  I think it sounds like we will be OK and I appreciate all of the input above.  I was terrible at chemistry and don't know pesticides.  I love the reference site given by Countryboy....very helpful.

This is such a great group - someone always knows the answer to what I need!

Linda T in Atlanta

[BjornBee]

Pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, etc., may be labled for one particular use or another, but are still just as deadly when it comes to bees. They are labeled what they are labled based on intent of use. Not whether they are deadly or not. Hair spray and WD-40 is not listed as pesticides, but will kill bees just the same. Even soapy water kills insects.

One of the most deadly combinations to be found yet in the CCD samples, is with the use of a widely used fungicide in conjunction of other chemicals. And we all know bees drag in stuff from all over the place making chemical synergy more potent and deadly then one individual used chemical.

Businesses today do very well promoting themselves in a "green" business model. And for a bed and breakfast, the positives of taking the most eco-friendly approach may pay off. That's not to say you need to cater to leftist tree huggin nuts. But perhaps to a crowd that understands sitting out on the lawn on a blanket, a place where the kids can play, or the family pet can wonder, and can do so without coming in contact with harmful chemicals.

This is a great opportunity to educate a homeowner (or business) and perhaps lower the overall use of chemicals in our society. I personally think we use way too much chemicals for every perceived problem we have. This business owner I bet would understand these issues.

I would not take the "I did my homework, and the herbicide you are using is ok with me". Because we could never know if those chemicals are harmful to the bees. And with all the problems people are having with bees, I think keeping chemicals out of the hive is our number one priority for hive health.

I have neighbors that seemingly treat their lawns weekly and cut it twice per week. Just plain nuts. No clover in their yards. No bugs in their yards. Just a manicured lawn as barren and void of life as one can get.

You don't need to take a radical approach. Just commonsense and promoting the positives.  ;)

And if the business owner is on board for such promotion, have them consider an open house in the backyard with a honey tasting and tea sipping experience. What a great way to promote the business, make new contacts, and educate to the public what this cutting edge business is up too. I may be even so bold to suggest National Honey Bee Day would be the perfect opportunity for this program. They could even build a marketing program around doing a backyard wildlife sanctuary. http://www.pennapic.org/beesanctuary.html  Businesses one step ahead of the next guy, and creative in offering new ideas, stay in business way longer than the other mundane businesses who all do the same thing.

[T Beek]

Hey, thanks BjornBee.  Excellent and well thought out answer.  Unfortunately, you lost me (and likely others) with the "leftest tree huggin nuts" comment.  Completely Un-neccesary and confrontational, don't you think?

thomas

[BjornBee]

Hey, thanks BjornBee.  Excellent and well thought out answer.  Unfortunately, you lost me (and likely others) with the "leftest tree huggin nuts" comment.  Completely Un-neccesary and confrontational, don't you think?

thomas

Absolutely not.

In today's world, anyone mentioning eco-friendly, "Green", and other ideas, are sometimes automatically labled as nut jobs. I'm expressing my stance in the middle.

It's like saying...I love animals and detest animal cruelty...yet think people who join PETA and throw paint are nut job radicals.

I also think we should take the best approaches to be good stewards of the environment, without jumping off cliffs with "I love Al Gore" shirts wrapped around our heads.

If your a tree huggin nut, I could care less. If your not a tree huggin nut...I could care less. I am expressing my viewpoint and opinion, hopefully without folks getting all worked up and flustered about a term I used.

Are there self proclaimed tree huggin people? Yes. Do I think they are sometimes nuts? You bet. So I see nothing wrong with my use to describe this group of folks.

My words are only confrontational when a reader responds, gets defensive, and looks for an argument.

I think Gore is a nut job. If you don't...good for you.

[tillie]

Thank you, Bjorn bee for the honey-tasting in the yard idea.  This owner is really onboard with not harming the bees if at all possible and is interviewing another lawn company today who purport to be a greener company.  She also canceled her mosquito service for this year in taking care of the bees. 

She has solar panel heating at the B&B, grey water recycling, rain water harvesting, green cleaning agents.  It's an obvious place to increase environmental education with the way the bee hives are handled.   

I am looking forward to working with her at such a place (tree hugger that I am  :evil:)

Linda T in Atlanta

[deknow]

don't forget that the "inert ingredients" are not necessarily "inert" when it comes to the bees. surficants are listed as "inert" (as they are designed to help the active substances spread more easily), but have been demonstrated as a problem for bees.

deknow

[BjornBee]

Tbeek,
Let me slow down for minute.

One of the things I am faced with almost weekly, is being approached by one group or another with National Honey Bee Day. I have requests....make that "demands", to promote one stance or another when it comes to other peoples views on how best to save the world. I have been called a "hater" of bees because I would not promote certain movie, a book, or other efforts. Because if I did not promote it, it is assumed that I do not care or do not want to help. I have had beekeepers (and some non-beekeepers who have latched on to an issue) suggest that if I really wanted to help the bees, I would take their postion, and jump on one bandwagon or another. And by failing to do what they want, I am harming the bigger picture. Some of these groups see anyone not as radical as them...as the enemy in some way.

I am not for the idea of real radical groups. And I get the sense from many on this forum that although they want to be the best beekeepers they can be, they also see some groups as way too radical for their taste.

My comment to Tillie, was suggesting that there are many ways to be a good steward of the environment, yet it also means not going off the deep end. I use the term tree huggin nut as a way to describe way far radical folks who usually have an all or nothing approach, and see themselves as the only way everyone else should live.

I think there are a whole bunch of folks in the middle that have commonsense, and a sensible approach to helping the environment, and would be more apt to get involved with such Eco and green issues, if not for the radical side who shouts the loudest, with some rather radical approaches.

One side does nothing and could care less about the environment. The other side many times are seen as nut jobs in my opinion. I'm just trying to motivate the folks in the middle, and let them know that there are others that are willing to do things without making demands, expecting you to jump off a cliff, or anything else I see some suggest with their radical positions.

And yes, I get passionate about this.  :-D  Passion....not radical.  ;)

[BjornBee]

tillie,
I wish I could hook up more with folks you describe.
I think my bees would be better for it.

Good luck.

[Countryboy]

surficants are listed as "inert" (as they are designed to help the active substances spread more easily),

The surfactants I am familiar with act as a glue to stick the liquid chemical to the plant leaf.  For example, if you use vinegar as a weed killer, you add a little liquid dishsoap to the vinegar as your surfactant.  It helps keep the vinegar on the leaf, so it doesn't drip off too fast.  Then again, I am more familiar with herbicide sprays than insecticide sprays.

Inert ingredients in dry fertilizers are not chemically reactive fillers that help hold the NPK to make it easier to apply.  If inert ingredients in fertilizer are bad for bees, I'd better warn my bees that suck on cowpies.

[Vetch]

The surfactant in Round-up (POEA - polyethoxylated tallow amine) is not listed as an active ingredient, but is rather toxic, especially to amphibians.

The theory with the weedkillers 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T was that they are plant hormones, so they would not affect animals. Unfortunately, these products originally contained dioxin, which is toxic to mammals - agent orange was not harmless. Also, the fact that we call something a "plant hormone" doesn't mean much - the auxin hormones in plants are very similar to serotonin and melatonin, and the chlorinated versions of auxins are far more active and persist in the body thousands of times longer than what we are used to from eating plants.

In ag school, the idea that 2,4-D was harmless to mammals was widespread and promoted by the professors. Too bad that there is evidence that is ignorant:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18420331

2,4-D is not likely to wipe out a hive. But there is evidence it can cause problems. One study found "moderate doses of 2,4-D severely impaired honeybees brood production." (http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/24-D.htm) Serotonin is a part of the nervous system of bees, and anything that disturbs serotonin in bees is likely to cause problems. Of course, the wonderchem companies can start marketing Prozac for bees, that should make everything OK.

[T Beek]

Let the weeds grow, ban herbicides now :-D  yeah right, that's gonna happen.

thomas (agent orange survivor)

[Vetch]

Your probably right - even neonicotinoid pesticides are not banned, and it is clear that they can do serious damage to beekeeping under normal use. Human health and ecosystem health are usually secondary concerns.

[BjornBee]

Always follow the money.

Around here, the big environmental issue is reducing the nitrogen into the waterways. PennState extension, the Chesapeake foundation, and the EPA, have big councils, big budgets, and heavy sticks beating the crap out of farmers reducing soil runoff into the waterways. The primary method for reduction is pushing "no-till" farming.

But in the past ten years, the chemicals have changed, and the new class and products make increased damage from chemicals used in "no-till" operations a huge problem. I had a chance a few weeks ago to talk to EPA official and express my concerns, and he willingly suggested that eventually this will make it to the top of the pile, and will be an issue for the coming years. I took that to mean that right now, the money is in Chesapeake bay cleanup, and chemicals will be the big money project later, after the current situation plays itself out.

I'm convinced that it's not about making changes to what is wrong, as much as it's about milking each and every problem for the last dollar, while funding extension offices, EPA budgets, and environmental associations and councils.

I wrote about this last year and if you scroll down to the article about "no-till" you can see what I wrote then.

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekramblings0910.html

[BlueBee]

Michigan has a ban on Phosphorus in lawn fertilizers, but I haven't heard anything about Nitrogen. 

The common garden fertilizer at the stores here used to be 12-12-12.  Now it's 12-0-12. 

Bjorn, what is your advice on managing codling moths in a bee friendly fashion? 

[BjornBee]

Bjorn, what is your advice on managing codling moths in a bee friendly fashion? 

:idunno:

Not a clue. I'm not an apple grower.

There does seem to be eco-friendly controls, some with clay sprays, etc.  But I have no experience myself.