Foundationless question

jmblakeney · February 11, 2011, 12:01:06 PM

This is my first year beekeeping and I want to do foundationless frames. My question is, do you absolutely have to coat the starter strip, be it a Popsicle(sp?) stick, cardboard, or chamfer strip, with beeswax? As I said, I am a brand new beekeeper, so I do not have access to clean beeswax. Nor do I want to buy the contaminated stuff to coat over it. I assume that they will build without a coating of it b/c they do it in the wild and the reason for the coating is to guide them to where I want them to start building it at. Is my assumption correct?
Thanks,
James

VolunteerK9 · February 11, 2011, 12:08:17 PM

Nope. I didnt and they turned out fine. Bush says it actually weakens the attachment if you use wax.

Robo · February 11, 2011, 12:17:52 PM

Ditto.

I used unwaxed coroplast strips.

John Adams · February 11, 2011, 12:56:42 PM

I agree as well...nobody rubs wax on the inside of a tree before the bees move in.

Michael Bush · February 11, 2011, 01:34:46 PM

>My question is, do you absolutely have to coat the starter strip, be it a Popsicle(sp?) stick, cardboard, or chamfer strip, with beeswax?

You absolutely do not and I absolutely recommend you don't. The bees will attach to your wax and your wax won't be as well attached as what the bees would have done, making it weaker. Plus I recommend being lazy...

> As I said, I am a brand new beekeeper, so I do not have access to clean beeswax. Nor do I want to buy the contaminated stuff to coat over it. I assume that they will build without a coating of it b/c they do it in the wild and the reason for the coating is to guide them to where I want them to start building it at. Is my assumption correct?

There is no reason to coat it. They will not follow it any better coated or uncoated.

Kathyp · February 11, 2011, 01:42:08 PM

i have been known to dump swarms on completely empty frames with no guides when i have been short of time and caught unprepared. most of the time the bees do fine. every once in a while they mess things up. i don't know what your mess tolerance is, but if you are at all concerned about having to fix sideways comb, etc. you might want to consider using one sheet of foundation per box until they have built things out. you can rotate that frame out later if it concerns you.

jmblakeney · February 11, 2011, 05:25:13 PM

Wow, I didn't expect that many responses so quick. Thank you all very much.
Robo, I noticed that the bees didn't attach the comb to the sides and bottom. Do you have any problems b/c of that? Do you wire up the frames with wire or fishing line as The Fat Bee Man does to give it better stability?
Michael, Great point. I never thought of it that way. (me not attaching it as well as the bees could do)
KathyP, I am not to concerned with having to manipulate the comb somewhat if it is being built sideways. I am sure i'll be checking on them enough to catch it b4 it becomes to much of a mess.

Thanks again to all of you for your time and responses,
James

Robo · February 11, 2011, 05:29:30 PM

Quote from: jmblakeney on February 11, 2011, 05:25:13 PM
Robo, I noticed that the bees didn't attach the comb to the sides and bottom. Do you have any problems b/c of that? Do you wire up the frames with wire or fishing line as The Fat Bee Man does to give it better stability?

That is very common with foundationless. Yes I do wire all my frames. I know there are many on here that will advise against it, but I have yet to have a comb failure on a wired frame. As soon as the draw the comb to the first wire, you no longer have to worry about how you hold the frame. I've tried the fishline, but am not a fan. Many times I return to a yard to find the line hanging out the front of the hive. I also notice that the bees don't seem to want to draw comb around it as easy as they do the wire.

Acebird · February 11, 2011, 07:29:48 PM

QuoteI used unwaxed coroplast strips.

Why coroplast vs. nothing at all?

Robo · February 11, 2011, 07:37:15 PM

Quote from: Acebird on February 11, 2011, 07:29:48 PM
QuoteI used unwaxed coroplast strips.

Why coroplast vs. nothing at all?

Without a guide in the middle of the frame, they will use the edge of the frame for the center of the comb, or worse yet, go diagonally across the frames.

windfall · February 11, 2011, 08:39:35 PM

Robo,
Should we take your comments about comb failure and wiring to mean that you have experienced broken combs when you haven't wired, or you just see where it is likely/possible?
If you have had them break before completely drawn (without wires), what size frames? under what conditions?

bailey · February 11, 2011, 08:52:17 PM

if nothing else a sheet of foundation as a guide for the first few combs then you wont need anymore foundation if you grow center out.
i didnt use foundation last year and built alot of new comb on starter strips! (from 25 to 60 plus hives at peak)
but it has tricks and limits to it for setting up otherwise cross comb is a possibility and it really does suck!
i have a deep in a hive that is cross combed as hell cause of this.

i like starter strips but learn first! and learn fast!

welcome to a great hobby!

Bailey!

Acebird · February 11, 2011, 08:53:11 PM

QuoteWithout a guide in the middle of the frame

I have heard that the break out piece of the top bar is enough to create a guide. But then I ask myself if you just removed the break out piece you would be left with an edge so why doesn't that work?

Robo · February 11, 2011, 09:13:19 PM

Quote from: Acebird on February 11, 2011, 08:53:11 PM
QuoteWithout a guide in the middle of the frame

I have heard that the break out piece of the top bar is enough to create a guide. But then I ask myself if you just removed the break out piece you would be left with an edge so why doesn't that work?

Because you turn the break out piece 90 degrees so the edge protrudes lower than the frame bottom, otherwise they could just as easily center the comb on the outside edge. Even turning the break out piece doesn't create a guide that is perfectly centered.

I prefer the coroplast because it fits into slotted top bars and a single staples hold it in place. Anything else I have heard of or tried takes more time and isn't as strong.

Robo · February 11, 2011, 09:37:55 PM

Quote from: windfall on February 11, 2011, 08:39:35 PM
Robo,
Should we take your comments about comb failure and wiring to mean that you have experienced broken combs when you haven't wired, or you just see where it is likely/possible?
If you have had them break before completely drawn (without wires), what size frames? under what conditions?

Too many times.

With newly drawn comb (soft) that is loaded with brood or honey, if you don't keep the frames perfectly vertical the comb will seek vertical and bend to one side. When you straighten the frame, the comb bends back, and depending upon the amount you have moved the frame and the weight in the comb, that twist back and forth is enough for the comb to break loose. Sort of like bending a wire back and forth to break it.

So without wire, you can't lean them against the hive while you inspect and also hope you don't slip and drop one.

If you are like me and have a habit of rotating the frame around the top bar to view the other side (which seems to be the easiest way to do it) you are guaranteed to have the comb on the ground.

Kathyp · February 11, 2011, 09:42:58 PM

Quoteyou are guaranteed to have the comb on the ground.

but probably only once! :evil:

i don't wire, but robo is right. until the comb is attached on the sides you do have to be careful.

Robo · February 11, 2011, 09:45:35 PM

Quote from: kathyp on February 11, 2011, 09:42:58 PM
but probably only once! :evil:

I wish.... After years of flipping along the top bar to see the other side, old habits are tough to break....

windfall · February 11, 2011, 10:55:26 PM

Old habits and muscle memory are tough to fight, especially if your mind is drifting to the next task at hand, or something your kids said as you went out the door....
I can certainly see how a bit deflection from plumb could torque the comb off with just one edge attached....and I can imagine what a drag it must be to feel it peel out. A couple strands of wire seem like pretty cheap insurance.
No old habits yet for me in beekeeping so maybe I can learn to be careful from the get go. But I have been on the fence about wiring the frames, and opinion in past threads seems pretty evenly split.

Kathy what size are you running with your foundationless?

Robo · February 11, 2011, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: windfall on February 11, 2011, 10:55:26 PM
But I have been on the fence about wiring the frames, and opinion in past threads seems pretty evenly split.

Those that don't do it choose not to because of the extra work. If you have the time to invest, I would suggest doing it. I have never regretted wiring a frame, I have regretted not wiring.

Michael Bush · February 12, 2011, 12:43:46 AM

>f you just removed the break out piece you would be left with an edge so why doesn't that work?

After you turn it 90 degrees and put it back, it creates a protuberance in the CENTER of the frame. If you just break it out you have a protuberance on one side of the frame, NOT in the center.