listless behavior

FRAMEshift · April 20, 2011, 12:18:58 AM

One of our packages is not performing like the others. They balled the queen when I direct released her. Don't know if she survived but it didn't look good. This hive didn't draw any comb for about a week and is only drawing small amounts after 10 days. The other hives had comb and eggs at 4 days. This hive is consuming much less sugar syrup than the other package hives. Haven't seen the queen since she was released.

Does this kind of behavior sound like a queenless hive? Would the absence of a queen cause listless, unfocused behavior on the frames? They are foraging in what seems a normal way.

hankdog1 · April 20, 2011, 12:27:01 AM

Sounds like they got her to me. Things just don't work the same way in a hive that doesn't have a queen to set the smell of harmony.

FRAMEshift · April 20, 2011, 01:05:08 AM

I should have mentioned that there is no "queenless roar" or unusual sounds of any kind in the hive. I thought there might have been a free queen mixed in with the package to start with and that might account for the one in the queen cage being balled. When we picked up the packages, at least one of the queens was piping.... making a high pitched whistle sound. But I don't know if that sound came from the hive that is now listless.

hardwood · April 20, 2011, 01:27:10 AM

Doesn't sound queenless to me from what you've said (of course without seeing???). I know it sounds harsh, but sometimes the only way to spur a hive into action is to take away what they have in terms of stores. If you're feeding switch jar tops to one with only one small hole (enough to keep them alive but not enough for them to store) and give them 3 weeks. If no improvement requeen.

Scott

bee-nuts · April 20, 2011, 02:48:00 AM

This is a really big leap but what if there were laying workers in the package. I can see a smuck shaking packages with a laying worker colony. Hope thats not the case. Add a frame of eggs from other colony and see if its queenless.

FRAMEshift · April 20, 2011, 08:48:18 AM

Quote from: bee-nuts on April 20, 2011, 02:48:00 AM
Add a frame of eggs from other colony and see if its queenless.

That's the plan right now. On the laying worker issue, it's true I have not seen eggs, but since there is very little comb, there is not really any place for the queen (or laying workers) to put eggs. It would not surprise me if the hive is queenless, but I did not previously associate that with the sluggish behavior I'm seeing.

annette · April 20, 2011, 02:28:58 PM

One year I had a hive that looked very listless. Just hanging around and doing nothing just liked you described. No eggs, no evidence of a queen at all. No roar at all.

I introduced a mated, marked queen and they immediately flew to the queen cage and covered it. That queen was accepted and stayed with the hive for 2 years before being superceded. So they were indeed queenless.

My experience with queenless hives has been more like that than hearing a roar. I just had my first experience with hearing a roar in a hive that is queenless, otherwise it is the listless thing.

Kathyp · April 20, 2011, 02:47:58 PM

Quotebut I did not previously associate that with the sluggish behavior I'm seeing

no leadership. abnormal behavior. i missed one for the same reason a couple of years ago. they didn't act aggressive and i had not been deep into the hive for some time. they did seem like they were a little disorganized and they were not as active. by the time i got in there and realized they were queenless, i did have laying workers and had to dump the hive.

that frame of eggs thing is the best idea. no harm if she's there and quick indications if she's not.

FRAMEshift · April 20, 2011, 04:29:45 PM

Quote from: kathyp on April 20, 2011, 02:47:58 PM

no leadership. abnormal behavior.

Kathy, this is the reason I was surprised at the connection between a queenless state and disorganized behavior. Because I know that the common perception is that the queen is the "leader" in some way, but that is not my impression. The very name "Queen" implies authority and leadership. But as far as I've been able to tell up until now, the queen is just an egg laying machine. The decision making is a hive process, far more complex than any one insect could accomplish. I thought authority was colonial and not from the queen. So I'm surprised that just losing a queen would result in such a "dispirited" hive.

Kathyp · April 20, 2011, 04:33:29 PM

why do the workers work? to feed brood, raise brood, store food for survival (no queen/brood no survival). if there is no queen , there is no purpose for the bees. i agree that she's not directing behavior, but if she's not doing her thing, they have no thing to do.

FRAMEshift · April 20, 2011, 06:57:48 PM

Quote from: kathyp on April 20, 2011, 04:33:29 PM
i agree that she's not directing behavior, but if she's not doing her thing, they have no thing to do.

Yes, I agree this must be true. But "doing her thing" must mean more than laying eggs. There is a difference in comb drawing well before any eggs have been laid. So it must be that her pheromones are stimulating activity in general.