How many boxes for overwintering

[uglyfrozenfish]

I have been thinking about how to overwinter my bees up here in Michigan.  I was hoping to draw on some of the eons of collective experience here. 

I hvve been planning to have my hives overwinter in  three deeps based on a year of observation and less than a year of experience.  Let me explain why I am thinking of using three deeps, and then hopefully ya'll can correct my inexperienced thinking. 

I took over a hive that had been feral for 10+ years.  They have thrived in full shade next to an orchard in two full deeps and two shallow supers.  My thinking was that if that is how they thrived then why should I mess with that too much.  So this year I gave them a new deep and took the shallows from them while they were empty.  They are building up their third deep now.  I also have two new colonies and was planning on giving them three deeps also to copy the feral hive (they are also working on drawing out their third deep). 


So why are two deeps better than three?
What harm could I do experimenting with three deeps rather than two?
If the bees survived by themselves for so long without my help/intrusions why should I try and manage their hive? 

Thank you all for your help and insight
Lee

[AllenF]

3 deeps would mean more space for the bees to heat.  And less honey for you at the end of summer.  And you may have to rotate boxes in the spring to get the queen back on bottom. 

[Kathyp]

you have to go by the size of the hive.  if you don't have the boxes pretty well packed with bees and stores they waste a lot of energy trying to keep things warm and reach the food.  your goal, as you prepare them for winter, is to give them the best odds of survival.  that means the least space to heat, the least distance to food, and the most protection for mice, etc. 

[Scadsobees]

You'll need at least 1 deep.  ;)

I usually overwinter with 2 deeps, a few hives every year with 1.    Sometimes with 2 deeps and medium.  It really comes down to how much honey they have stored for the winter.  2 deeps stuffed full is more than enough honey, 1 deep stuffed full is ideal, imo.

The only reason I'll occasionally leave a super on is when I have one half full and they'll need that honey for the winter.  Otherwise I get them all off, let the bees rob any remaining honey out, and leave them in early to mid august with only 2 deeps  (or less)

I'm not overly concerned about them having 2 boxes and to heat extra space, they usually are in the top box by winter anyway. If you have 3 deeps in all likelyhood that bottom deep will be empty all winter anyway.  So no point in leaving the extra empty space, like Kathy said.

[BlueBee]

My opinion is there would be no harm in experimenting with 3 deeps if you want to do it.  As you said ,the bees have proven that works for them.  The only harm I would see is a full deep less honey for YOU.

As for the thermodynamics of the hive, most beeks on here will claim all winter long that "bees don't heat the hive, they only heat the cluster".  From a heat standpoint in a THIN WOOD hive, I don't think it matters how many boxes you use.

A wood hive only has an insulation value of maybe R0.75, and thermally that is about like hiving the bees out in the open.  About the only real advantage of having them in the wood hive at all, is the protection from the wind, rain, and snow.  Wind would blow away the heat in the cluster and kill them.

If you're concerned about the bees getting too cold, I would insulate them.   I think insulation is a good insurance policy.  Most beeks around me seem to use wood double deeps for wintering.  Any many ended up having to buy a bunch of new bees this spring. 

[Kathyp]

"bees don't heat the hive, they only heat the cluster".

there is some truth to that.  they are not trying to heat the hive.

the cluster is not insulated so heat is not retained and does leave the cluster.  look at some IR pics.  while the highest heat is in the center of the cluster, there is heat outside the cluster in the surrounding space.  in this pic you can see how most of the heat is retained in the hive with some loss through the top. 
last year i added some extra wood under the cover and the hives seemed to come through better....but it was a mild, if very wet, winter.
http://www.beebehavior.com/infrared_camera_pictures.php

the more heat retained close to the cluster, the better for the bees.  the more space they have, the less heat will be kept close.

[BlueBee]

the more heat retained close to the cluster, the better for the bees.

I agree 100% with that statement.  That is why I use foam insulated hives, NOT wood hives.  Finski, are you listening?

[Finski]

.
Basic principles to over winter in Finland= Alaska level

reduce the hive as much as bees can stay inside.

Winter cluster will be the same size as the last brood area.

- tight space keeps the interion   warmer and condensation dewpoint moves ouside of the hive.

- too much space means bigger mold generation and condensation inside the hive.

- simple wooden wall uses 50% more energy than insulated.
Starving is nearer when consumption ih higher.


Bees heat the hive. It is sure.

Cold kills colonies. It is sure.

There are easy winters and difficult winter.


My 48 years experience against 1 year experience. No hope to to me to win that debate.

[FRAMEshift]

My 48 years experience against 1 year experience. No hope to to me to win that debate.

Well you certainly know how to keep bees in your climate Finski.  :-D  But in general, I don't think the "experience" argument means much.  I know lots of beeks who who have been doing it wrong for 10 years.  And others who pick up beekeeping quickly and have an instinct for doing it right.  The passage of time does not, in itself, assure that someone knows what they are doing.

That said, we do pretty much what Finski recommends.  We get the winter hive down as small as possible and that usually means about the size of one deep. 

[Finski]

.
Jee jee. That song again.

My experience is very valid in  your climate. You just pick tthe info wha is valuable. When we speak about Michigan and 3 box wintering, it makes no sence.
I could nurse bees in any  part of USA, NO DOUBT.



Your problem is that you nurse your bees without remembering that your climates are from tropic to tundra. HOW YOUR KNOWLEDGE IS VALID EVERYWHERE AND MY NOWHERE



I know that your experiences in Florida is valid in Canada and in Alaska.

I have read your writings years. I am not impressed on your hobby level or on your "do nothing" advices. On another hand you make your secret tricks which are needed in any climaten.

I hane not such trobles a

[Finski]

.
Frameshift, you really say that experience means nothing in beekeeping.

That is biggest rubbish which I have ever heard in beekeeping.

Just now most of my hives has brought over 100 kg honey and yield continues.
Even you do not know what is the secret of big yields. I could bet about that. And this factor is the most difficult in beekeeping and it depends only on you.

To keep colonies alive on backyard and feed sugar all year around is like keep aquarium fishes or feed sparrows.

[rbinhood]

Those many years of experience really don't mean nothing.....you have to adapt over time....the things that worked the past winter may not give the same results this winter.  What works for one hive may not work for another you have to be vigilant of each hive and determine what works best for that hive.  IMO each hive is different in its needs and the way it reacts to the same set of circumstances (some hives beard on the front of the hive some don't, some will cluster next to the sunny side of the hive during the winter and others in the center) you have to treat each hive and a individual community.

The most important thing you can do is keep notes on each hive that way you will over time have a reference for each hive to return too for reference on that particular hive........Just the ramblings of an "old fart" not too be taken seriously!

[Finski]

.
Our professionals overwinter bees systematically in one Langstroth.

I prefer 2 box wintering but half of my colonies normally winter in one box and another half in 2 box.

So, what was the difference? 

no one here keep 3 boxes.  remember 60 degree nort. Now we have had one month almost 30C. What is the difference with your climate.

At least this that bee forage here on warm days even 23 a'clock.

[Finski]

Those many years of experience really don't mean nothing.....you have to adapt over time....the things that worked the past winter may not give the same results this winter.  What works for one hive may not work for another you have to be vigilant of each hive and determine what works best for that hive.  IMO each hive is different in its needs and the way it reacts to the same set of circumstances (some hives beard on the front of the hive some don't, some will cluster next to the sunny side of the hive during the winter and others in the center) you have to treat each hive and a individual community.

The most important thing you can do is keep notes on each hive that way you will over time have a reference for each hive to return too for reference on that particular hive........Just the ramblings of an "old fart" not too be taken seriously!

heh heh heh heh.  i do not keep notes on my hives.

But it is true that in every job a man learns his job in 5 years.


I know too that many beekeepers do well without a good knowledge. The bees do the job even if the owner is not a gun powder inventor.


You may do much wrong and bees repair yor faults.

.

[Kathyp]

You may do much wrong and bees repair yor faults.

that's the truth!!   :-D

[FRAMEshift]

Frameshift, you really say that experience means nothing in beekeeping.

No, I didn't say that.  But just having more years under your belt does not mean you know more.   Some people learn faster than others.  And some people don't learn at all.   

Even you do not know what is the secret of big yields. I could bet about that. And this factor is the most difficult in beekeeping and it depends only on you.

Well I would say the key to big yields is having a big spring buildup in population so that you have lots of foragers when the flow comes.  But if you are thinking of something else, please let us know.

[BlueBee]

UglyFrozenFish reported that his bees survived 10 years in Michigan in hive nearing a 3 deep configuration.  That bee "experience" doesn't mean anything?  According to a bee conference at Michigan State University in the spring, we lost 60% of our bees here last winter.  Most people winter in wooden double deeps in Michigan.  Two commercial guys near me lost 60% or more last winter. 

If people here are having such high loses with a standard configuration, then it makes logical sense to modify your plans.  What do they say about people who do the same thing over and over and expect a different result?

Physics says that most of the bees heat is lost when hiving them in a thin wood box that has virtually no insulation value.  So from a heat perspective, 2 vs 3 wood deeps doesn't make a difference in my opinion.   A polystyrene hive, or an insulated hive, is different; the bees heat will end up raising the temp of the environment in such a hive.  Such a hive prevents the bees from experiencing temperature extremes and that is a good thing.

What I would do in your case is insulate the hive with sheets of foam insulation for the winter and make sure you have a top vent that is about 1" x 3/8".  I would also reduce the bottom entrance way down and insulate off any screened bottoms.  The insulation will retain bees heat and keep them from experience the full brunt of a Michigan winter.  I would winter in a double deep with insulation. 

[Kathyp]

That bee "experience" doesn't mean anything?

there are many components that go into bee survival.  heat/hive size is only one.  survivor hives are much better at making it than those we have purchased and manipulated...as a rule. 

commercial beekeepers have a different set of circumstances than those of us who hobby bee keep.  they move hives, treat differently for disease, feed differently, and if they have disease in a large yard will have high losses. 

there are very few management lessons that i could take from a commercial yard....or they, from my hobby yard.

2 vs 3 wood deeps doesn't make a difference in my opinion.

that's like saying it's just as easy to heat a house with a 6 foot ceiling as a house with a vaulted ceiling.

I would winter in a double deep with insulation. 

this is probably the most popular winter configuration as long as there are enough bees.  i have wintered smaller hives in 1 deep with dry sugar on them.

[Finski]

But if you are thinking of something else, please let us know.

jep. Good ields came from good  pastures. Selecting places and how many hives you keep in one spot makes huge yields.

You have huge winter losses but you do not need advices.
I think that varroa is a main factor in losses. Your winters are not do bad. Varroa and cold work together and kill hives.  yes, cold kills hives, did you know that. I read from American report.  Varroa weakens them and cold takes care the rest.


Bt it seems that forum climate not suits for me. Waste of time.

[mikecva]

I use 3 boxes but mine are all mediums (the same as two deeps) with insulation on three sides. I have a wind block (hay bails) in front of the entrance. This works well for my bees.

The dumbest thing I did getting ready for winter was the first year when I forgot to block off the screened bottom. I lost >75% of the colonies in 3 hives and 50% in the last.   :buttkick: :buttkick: :buttkick: :imsorry:

Maybe that should be a new tread - Dumb things I did preparing for winter.   :lau: :lau: :lau: