getting 2 weak hives ready for winter

[phill]

Of my 3 hives-- all came from nucs this spring-- only #1 looks like it will be strong enough going into winter. #2 was doing great until they swarmed. Now there's plenty of honey + pollen, but not enough bees and no brood-- the new queen (assuming there's one in there) hasn't started laying yet. #3 has just been an underachiever: not much brood, not much stores.

Now I'm looking for suggestions on what to do before it's too late. Should I make sure #2 has a queen, then pinch the queen in #3 and combine the weaker hives? That would make one really big colony-- four deeps about 30 covered frames-- without enough stores. But they'd still have some time to forage, and I could feed if necessary. Or should I break up one or both weak hives, make a few nucs, and combine what's left?

[BlueBee]

So you've got 30 covered deep frames between your two weak hives?  That's almost 2 double deep hives isn't it?  In Mass, 2 double deeps should do for wintering.  Being an optimist, I would balance those hives out and add good mated queens asap.  In the fall you can always feed to fill up comb with sugar water for the winter.  It's getting the winter bees brooded up I would worry about.

If you want to experiment with wintering nucs, that's always a good experiment too.  According to a recent thread you might only expect a 50% success rate though.  I believe if you're a hobbyist and have the time to baby your nucs over winter, your odds go up, but that's just me.  I baby my nucs with well insulated nucs and electric heat.

[Finski]

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First, retsrict the hives so small or big that all frames are occupied.

If the colony is 3 frame size, give one food frame which has pollen and honey.

If the hive occupyes 5 frame, put into hive one food frame and one pollen frame. The rest are empty combs where queen have space to lay.

Take extra food frames off and other combs.

Restrict ventilation in 3 frame nuc  1x2 cm and for 6 frame 1x5 cm. If ventilaing bees are 5 or more, you may enlarge the entrance.

Now, when hives has no brood, you may handle them with 3% oxalic acid spray. You get rid off varroa.


With this method you get the he colonies big enough.

If colony  occupyes only 2 frames, unite it to another.

If you bye a 5 frame nuc now and share ghe brood frames among the hives, it helps really much.

[Finski]

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You have 3 hives and 2 weak hives?

If one colony is good, take from strong hive one brood frame to boath.
Then weak ones wll grow with speed.   - but in restricted space.

[phill]

BlueBee, I might be getting too cautious. Going into last winter I had one hive with 2 full deeps, very heavy with stores. They didn't make it. It was an unusually harsh winter, though. In the past 2 deeps has been enough. Maybe I should just work on getting them both stronger.

[BlueBee]

Winter is always a crapshoot to some degree.  This past winter was harsh in Michigan as well; it took out a lot of double deeps here too.  That is why I listen to Finski when it comes to wintering.  He's even colder than we get.  I have adopted Finski's insulation ideas for my wintering.  I believe a descent amount of insulation makes it easier on the bees, especially when we happen to get a hard winter.

[Finski]

BlueBee, I might be getting too cautious. Going into last winter I had one hive with 2 full deeps, very heavy with stores. They didn't make it. It was an unusually harsh winter, though. In the past 2 deeps has been enough. Maybe I should just work on getting them both stronger.

heavy stores and number of boxes do not tell, what is the winterball.

My problem was last autumn that I had strong hives before feeding, but
when old bees died the winter clustrs were oo small.  It revieled that varroa had hitted seriously on youngest brood what was intented to be wintering bees.

When I gove oxalic trickling in December I noticed that many clusters were too small.
i installed terrarium  heater in 6 hives and 5 of them were in  good condition after winter. Extra heat saved them.

Winter was bad. Bees were not able to do cleansing flight and bee after bee they come out to die. In heated hives bees had not hurry outside because they gut was not full of poo.

Winter frost period was so long and diificult that apple trees bloomed nowhere.

So one way is that bees make energy, their gut will be filled. They make poo inside or come out to die in frost weather. You see bees on snow even in -20C weather.

The warmer the hive the less they must produce energy from food.


One on my hives was 2 frames with terrarium heater. One frame of bees was in the hive after winter.
It survived but along the spring more bees died and I must give from a big hive a frame of bees. Soon it has 2 frames full of brood.from those frames the hive got 6 frames of bees. Just by the help of heating.

[bee-nuts]

I learned a lesson on overfeeding last year.  I lost a few right away with out first cold snap of 20 below with 40 wind from the east for like three days if I remember in december.  Opening the colonies to inspect reveled that I had over feed and they packed all comb with honey and had nowhere to cluster period.  No cluster space = dead bees when cold snap comes.  My younger colonies with new queens that continued to lay strong up until it was to cold to take feed had space to cluster where the last bees emerged and did fine.  We had a real hard winter and I was amazed at how well or how little honey stores were used by surviving colonies.  You do not need 150 lbs of honey to winter.  I think 100 lbs is plenty.  One (myself included) should learn what 100 pounds feels like and once that is reached stop feeding or make it the last feeding.  Note; I do insulate, wrap and provide a top feeder for emergency feeding.

[Finski]

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I use on average 40 lbs sugar to bees from September to April.

100 lbs is terrible amount of food for winter. Something totally wrong in that style of wintering.

[bee-nuts]

"100 lbs is terrible amount of food for winter. Something totally wrong in that style of wintering."

Why?

[Finski]

.
Try to find out

[Michael Bush]

There are two measurements typically used for wintering estimates.  Stores (weight of actual food) and the weight of the hive.  Since I'm usually hefting a hive, I care more about the latter (weight of the hive).  I need large cluster of Italians to weight 100 to 150 lbs.  But that's everything, hive, bees, bottom cover etc. not just stores.  How much stores it that?  A lot less than 100 lbs...

As for wintering, there are two issues.  What it takes to get them through the dormant part of winter (in my climate that's until about February or so) and what it takes to get them through the early buildup until there is nectar available (usually mid April).  If you underestimate you can have a lot of hives starve between February and April AND the amount of stores they have affect their inclination as well as their ability to build up early.

[bee-nuts]

A deep packed plum full of honey has maybe 80lbs.  More like 70 on average.  So 100 lbs is close to 1 1/2 deeps of honey, they need pollen and of course some room to cluster.  I have had colonies in a deep and medium do well to.  As I said I also put a hive top feeder on the hive.  If they eat themselves all the way up and out of stores they find sugar.  I have not had one double deep run dry yet (except one).  Ones that do eat up into the sugar still show plenty of honey available when It warm enough to look so they have plenty to build up on.  There is nectar available as soon as the girls are able to fly so unless we get springs like this last one that's not an issue, besides, I have the top feeder to cover my rear.

The one that did eat themselves out of house and home was the meanest bunch of bees I have seen to date.  I actually had a feeling they had some ahb in them.  They had an insane amount of bees and apparently thought it was summer all winter and I added another deep full o honey which they polished off by spring.  It was queen-less come spring which did not bother me cause if it did make winter I was going to re-queen it.  I ended up combining it with a weak one.  There was absolutely something odd about this colony.

Ill just let the 100 pound is terrible thing go in one ear and out somewhere else as the rubbish it is.

[Dan Leonard]

No cluster space = dead bees when cold snap comes.  My younger colonies with new queens that continued to lay strong up until it was to cold to take

How much cluster space is needed?  Is one mostly empty frame enough?

This will be my first winter.  just trying to figure it all out...

Thanks.

[T Beek]

Pretty sure Finski takes all his bees honey and feeds sugar syrup in his artificially heated hives all winter.  Not my method for sure.  That said, he successfully keeps bees in Finland, another world away for most beeks.  But that doesn't make his methods wrong or right, despite his claims (different strokes for different folks as has been said).

Needed cluster space for winter is dependant on number of bees remaining as winter sets in.  Removing honey supers and condensing frames/bees into as few boxes as needed for winter survival is desired in order to provide bees both 'enough space' but not so much there's a large area not covered by bees and thus making them heat/work more area.

thomas

[caticind]

No cluster space = dead bees when cold snap comes.  My younger colonies with new queens that continued to lay strong up until it was to cold to take

How much cluster space is needed?  Is one mostly empty frame enough?

No, it's not.  Cluster space means that all of your bees should be able to huddle together on a section of frames where the wax is drawn out but there is no stores (like where the last batch of brood hatched out before winter).  The bees use the empty cells to aid in insulating the cluster.  So look at how many frames are covered in bees and brood now.  You will need slightly less space than that for the cluster, and cluster size is an indicator of how strong your colony is at the beginning of winter.

[Finski]

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T BEEK!  i do not artifically heat my hives i Finland!

I use insulated winter boxes. It saves food and accelerate spring build up


i have bees which are getically adated to this climate.
I use 20 kg sugar on average to keep clusters  warm

5 frame colony is minimum which is able to winter with its own aid.
Varro brings easily cluster size under that.

With electrict heating it is able to over winter even 2 frames but spring buildåup is impossible

[Finski]

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The winter cluster will be same size as the brood are in last cycle before bees stopped feed more larvae.

Those bees which feeded larvae, are not able to survive up to winter.they die before cluing.

In Alaska and Finland level it is tme to put frame so that queen lays winter bees. Bees need several frames of pollen to rear winter bees.

I suppose that in Michigan level winter bee laying start a month later. Correct me what s right fact.

Just now my hives are full of honey and theyhave 5-9 boxes. During next 3 weeks summer bees die rapidly and at the end of August bees are in one or in two boxes. Then I start to feed hives..

I feed hives in one week that they do not start brood rearing.

[NJClydeDriver]

Finski,
When (what month) do your bees start to cluster and how cold is your winter?  I am sure the people in your area love what the bees do for there flowers and crops.
J

[Finski]

Finski,
When (what month) do your bees start to cluster and how cold is your winter?  I am sure the people in your area love what the bees do for there flowers and crops.
J

i live at the same latitude as Anchorage of Alaska. The length of winter means more than coldest days. Anchorage's temp curve is 2 degrees colder than ours.

Eastern part of Finland is very different than cost areas.

.i do not know when they cluster but they don't come out any more in Ochtober.