Who's Using the Long Hive?

[FRAMEshift]

There is a point about bee movement in a Long vs a Lang that I would like to hear some discussion on.  It is often said that in a multibox Langstroth hive, bees move up during the winter, eating honey as they go.  Then in the Spring, the brood nest moves back down as honey is added at the top and the queen is forced to lay further down. But I have heard some beekeepers say that in a Lang their bees do not move but sit where the broodnest was at the beginning of winter and bring honey down to that level from higher up as winter progresses.  Has anyone had this experience?  I'm wondering if this depends on climate.

I also wonder how this normally works in a Long Hive.  Our bees seem to stay in one place during the winter and bring honey to the broodnest.  I have heard this is common in horizontal hives.  Does anyone have enough experience with both types to see a difference in how the bees move over the winter and spring?

Posted by: Adam Foster Collins
Truthfully, your trapped heat theory works better in a long hive, as you never have any space above the brood. So the heat's trapped at the lid.

Adam, I'm wondering if this is related to your point about the fact that in a Long Hive the bees are always at the top where it is warmest and so they don't have to move during the winter.

[Adam Foster Collins]

I run 4" top bar hives with end entrances. Bees move to the top of the combs at the entrance end - where the brood is all year. The cluster seems to stay there in this region. By winter, there is a lot of honey stored in the brood frames at the top. By the time that honey has been consumed, it is getting warm enough for bees to travel further back for stores and return to the cluster at the entrance end.

In the tbh, or long hive. The heat is along the top, and never changes, as we don't add supers. The "vertical" space is about 12" high, and they glue the top bars together, so the heat is trapped there pretty well. I add insulation to the outer cover through the winter.

Adam

[FRAMEshift]

By the time that honey has been consumed, it is getting warm enough for bees to travel further back for stores and return to the cluster at the entrance end.

That's exactly what my bees do.  I think the bees really consume very little honey during the coldest part of winter.  Most of it is consumed as they start to make brood in the early spring. 

Adam, do you have any similar experience with Langstroth hives in the same climate?

[Adam Foster Collins]

I'm just running the tbh's at the moment, but I have some lang gear and am thinking about setting up some long hives. My father uses langs, so I have a certain amount of experience working them, but I just like the way the top bar is all at one level with no lifting. We're also in a hurricane area here, so we get the remains of several big storms per year. Irene just blew through. I like that I don't have to worry so much about hives going over in the wind.

Adam

[windfall]

Addressing the original post:

We started this year with 2 hives Both on deeps. 1 a 33 frame long hive, the other 8 frame lang. Since then we have had to split into more langs.
As a beginner I definitely found the long hive easier to work and manipulate especially with a follower board. Easy to gradually expand the space. Easy to add empty frames to either end or the middle. Easy to stick a split, or nuc, or a couple frames you want to look closer at (say while searching for a queen) in the far end.

I also really liked having all the frames at waist level It made inspecting and "messing about" much easier as a beginner. Lots or room, no bending, no lifting, ect.

One thing I didn't like about them was when feeding was necessary I had to use frame feeders, which meant going in to the hive to refill. Which was much more of a pain then a jar on a screened opening on inner cover.

They (long hives) are inherently more stable in a wind; which was nice this past weekend as Irene came through. But easily overcome with langs as well it seems.

I do find the lang gear faster and easier to build when needed (and I run a professional woodshop)

I also find the simple mobility of the langs was handy as we generated splits and swarms...easy to move a box down the road to another location.
Like wise I suspect combines will be slightly easier with the stacked boxes.

All in all I realy like the longhive but would not want more than one or two for right around the house as a hobbyist.

With my limited experience these comments have limited value. They are just the quick observations of someone who didn't have a bias to one system or the other 6 months ago.

I will be very interested to see if I notice difference in wintering over the next few years. I does make sense to me that vertical may be preferential here in the north. Movement of the cluster as a intact mass is simply accomplished. it can creep up through the space. whereas moving horizontally requires the ball to separate to move around frame edges.

[bulldog]

One thing I didn't like about them was when feeding was necessary I had to use frame feeders, which meant going in to the hive to refill. Which was much more of a pain then a jar on a screened opening on inner cover.

what i do with mine is make an additional follower board for each hive that is notched at the bottom for either one or two boardman feeders depending on what will fit, the ktbh only allow for one, but the ttbh can fit two easily or even three if i wanted it. it requires some empty space at the back of course but i try not to let them fill the hive completely anyway so that there is room to manipulate the frames.

adam, you said you cover your hives ? do you have problems with condensation ? i only had one hive last winter and they weren't that big so i covered them, but in spring everything was wet and moldy.

[FRAMEshift]

One thing I didn't like about them was when feeding was necessary I had to use frame feeders, which meant going in to the hive to refill.

We use top feeders on our long hives.  I've also been playing with Finski's method of just pouring syrup into drawn comb and adding it to the hive.  Yes you have to go into the hive but you only have to do it once if you add enough frames.

[FRAMEshift]

I do find the lang gear faster and easier to build when needed (and I run a professional woodshop)

I think of a long hive as just a lang with longer sides.  You only have to run two long rabbets which I would think is easier than running separate rabbets on each lang box.  What is it about langs that makes them faster and easer?

[T Beek]

I feed my Long Hive colonies behind the honey side follower board, it has a 1" hole that can be left open or closed with some duct tape.  Unfortunately, one of my Longs is now full, leaving no room to feed behind the follower even if I wanted to. 

However, with the system I have adopted, that includes various sized boards placed above the frames acting as an inner cover (one board has an access hole that can be moved above wherever brood nest is located), allows me to feed syrup w/ a baggie or pour dry sugar right on top, under the outer/top cover, which has a 1/2" clearance between.  Its my own design and quite frankly I didn't know what I was doing at the time, but it works fairly well and my bees seem to love it.  I'm still trying to keep a Long hive going longer than one winter though and if I can keep this one from swarming it may yet happen :)

thomas

[windfall]

I do find the lang gear faster and easier to build when needed (and I run a professional woodshop)

I think of a long hive as just a lang with longer sides.  You only have to run two long rabbets which I would think is easier than running separate rabbets on each lang box.  What is it about langs that makes them faster and easer?

Admittidly I went a bit over the top with the long hive I built, but even keeping it simple you need a much larger bottom or bottom board, a larger (possibly multiple part) roof system and some sort of base or legs to bring it up to a comfortable level...and the follower boards are awfully nice.

With langs you can expand the hive by simply adding a box...and making a box without bottom or top is about as easy as it gets. Anytime you reduce the number or size of components things get cheaper and faster.

To be fair, as folks are pointing out regarding feeding options, there are a lot of ways to "skin a cat" and you could build a pretty basic long hive quick and cheap as well.

[FRAMEshift]

even keeping it simple you need a much larger bottom or bottom board, a larger (possibly multiple part) roof system and some sort of base or legs to bring it up to a comfortable level...and the follower boards are awfully nice.

Yes, I see what you mean.  We just staple #8 hardware cloth to make a bottom.  Four concrete blocks and two cheap landscaping timbers make the 19 inch tall base for 2 long hives.  That's not very expensive.  But the 3 migratory tops per hive are expensive.  I've made some from scrap lumber that work ok but the commercial ones with aluminum tops look alot better.   :-D

[windfall]

Somehow I had gotten the idea you were running solid bottoms?

[Adam Foster Collins]

...adam, you said you cover your hives ? do you have problems with condensation ? i only had one hive last winter and they weren't that big so i covered them, but in spring everything was wet and moldy.

No - not "cover" per se, but I just put burlap and sawdust into the outer cover (lid) in order to insulate some. There was some moisture - but not so much that it was a problem. That's because I also replace my follower board with a screened in "basket" which is the same shape as the follower, but about 5 inches thick. Both sides are screened and I fill it right up with sawdust. Then I put that up against the last bar just as I would the follower. Remember this is in a ktbh. This baske/follower of sawdust allows moisture to escape.

Adam