swarm update virgin queen question

rober · May 20, 2013, 12:59:00 PM

in previous posts it was decided thst the 2 swarms i've caught were secondary swarms. i found what was likely a virgin queen & marked her. 2 days later no sign of her. a few days later there was another queen in the hive & no signs of the marked queen. so i marked the 2nd queen. it's now been another 5 days & there is still no sign of any brood. the marked queen however is in the hive. how long does it take for a virgin queen to get out & mate & how long after that til you start seeing brood?
the 2nd swarm is broodless & i think it's also queenless.

D Coates · May 20, 2013, 01:23:24 PM

It can take a week before she's laying. I've also found the more a peak the more stage fright she has. Do you have a couple of frame of brood you could steal from another hive for your swarms? Those frames will tell you what's going on and keep the population more stable before the respective queens get going. I'd bet the swarm that you marked the queen, only to lose her but find another unmarked queen had multiple virgins.

Kathyp · May 20, 2013, 02:24:52 PM

multiple virgins in after swarms is common. bees cleaning off marks also common. bee keepers insisting on marking queens and bees balling queen, or keeper damaging queen, happens.

put a frame of eggs in the one you think is queenless. mark it. in a couple/few days, check it. if there are queen cells with something in them, they are queenless but making one. if there is nothing, she's most likely in there but not laying yet.

rober · May 20, 2013, 04:03:56 PM

i did pull a partial frame of capped brood from the hive that survived the winter & put it the queenless swarm. i might just combine it with the queenright swarm. i'm not seeing any new brood in the survivor hive now. might be time to requeen it as well. i also hived 3 nucs saturday so i'm rebuilding the apiary after this winter's losses.

Michael Bush · May 20, 2013, 04:59:21 PM

D Coates says a week. That's about right. Usually the queen has hardened already by the time she flies with the swarm, so it's about a week less than the usual two weeks...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

Finski · May 20, 2013, 11:19:33 PM

.
Normal time from emerging to laying is 10 days.

Second swarm queens are in the cell 2-3 days and they are there ready to fly.
So they start to make mating flights at the age of 7 days and they spend 2-3 days for filling their sperma tank.

Yes, second swarm queen takes about 7-8 days to lay.

Rainy days often delay exit of swarms and then virgins are older and they are many . I have met 5 queens in same swarm.

BlueBee · May 20, 2013, 11:30:10 PM

Quote from: Finski on May 20, 2013, 11:19:33 PM
I have met 5 queens in same swarm.

How did you figure out there were 5 queens in there?

duck · May 21, 2013, 01:22:14 AM

they introduced themselves of course!

Finski · May 21, 2013, 02:12:38 AM

Quote from: duck on May 21, 2013, 01:22:14 AM
they introduced themselves of course!

so they did, dead or alive.

rober · May 26, 2013, 10:04:19 PM

went thru this hive again today & the queen is still there & there is still no brood AND there are about 6 capped supercedure cells. they are making queens from that frame of brood i gave them. so does this mean they've given up on the queen? these cells are mid-frame so i do not believe they are swarm cells. they've filled up the frames with nectar & pollen so i'm adding another brood box tomorrow.
i combined 2 very small swarms with a decent sized swarm a few days ago that appears to be queenless. i'm going to give that hive a frame with queen cells from the 1st swarm so hopefully that hive will be queen-right soon.

RHBee · May 27, 2013, 12:20:36 PM

I've wondered but never asked why is a virgin queen so runny and scared acting?

rober · May 28, 2013, 11:49:49 AM

so-any opinions on why the 1st swarm is making queen cells?

RHBee · May 28, 2013, 11:59:59 AM

Mid-frame QC usually mean supercedeure. Sorry I didn't mean to hijack your thread. The question just popped in my head so I threw it out there.

Michael Bush · May 28, 2013, 02:35:15 PM

>so-any opinions on why the 1st swarm is making queen cells?

Swarms often supersede the queen shortly after they get established.

rober · May 28, 2013, 03:43:53 PM

so michael-do they supercede virgin queens as well?

Michael Bush · May 28, 2013, 05:05:54 PM

>so michael-do they supercede virgin queens as well?

If anything goes wrong, it's the queen's fault...

ChrisT · May 28, 2013, 10:33:25 PM

Michael,

I am confused as to the "afterswarms".

Everyone has the same song: the original queen leaves with the first swarm and they "supposedly" leave only queen cells behind (not hatched queens). If there are these afterswarms that everybody speaks of, then where do these [already hatched] virgin queens come from that comprise the afterswarm? In other words, if only queen "cells" are left behind the first swarm, how do they afterswarm with virgin if they arent hatched yet? Or are the people mistaken that say the first swarm never leaves a queen behind, only queen cells? Or do some first swarms leave behind actual virgin queens already hatched and running around (which explains why people say they see afterswarms the same day)?

Thanks to anyone who can clear that up for me I would appreciate it.

hardwood · May 28, 2013, 10:42:08 PM

After swarms don't leave immediately after the primary swarm...it may take several days.

Scott

ChrisT · May 28, 2013, 10:51:26 PM

Scott,

So the primary swarm leaves when queen cells are ready to hatch within the next few days or can the primary swarm wait until the queen cells are in process of hatching or already hatched?

Thanks

Chris

hardwood · May 28, 2013, 11:31:16 PM

They "normally" swarm just before the queen cells are capped but this can vary greatly. I suspect weather can have a great deal to do with it as well as flow? I've caught swarms with both mated and unmated queens before.

Scott