What should I do? :(

evolved · April 22, 2014, 01:19:45 AM

I'll try to make this short...ish.

Bought my first package last year. I messed up by letting the queen out of her cage 3 days after installing the package. The bees killed her, workers started laying, and then the colony slowly died off.

This year, I got bees on march 30th. After learning my lesson about the queen, I installed the package and left alone. I checked back in a week to find the queen had been released. I didn't check further. I wanted to "give them their space", because last year I was going in the hive every few days.

I checked 1 week later, just before I went on my vacation. Comb was being built quickly(I have a tbh), and there was capped honey. I noticed there were several queen cells on multiple combs. I also noticed a few cells with larvae in them. I did NOT see the queen. I didn't have much time so I was not able to look for eggs/did not see any. I fed later that night(had limited time to do things) and noticed a couple of very well developed larvae on the hive floor like they were pulled out. I finished up and left alone til I got back from my vacation. I looked today and again did NOT find the queen. I saw no eggs at all. One or two of the queen cells were capped. Does that always mean something is in them?

I'm curious as to why I saw larvae at one point, but now I don't. The hive size looks the same as I got it(to me), so I wasn't thinking that she and some bees swarmed.

Thanks for any help you can offer. If this fails, it will be the second in a row, and significantly discouraging.

Kathyp · April 22, 2014, 01:41:46 AM

capped queen cells have something in them. they don't cap the queen cups. they tear them out most of the time. the larvae may have been drone brood, or other damaged brood. no way to tell now.

watch the queen cells. if they are capped they should hatch soon. 14 days start to finish. then you have to wait for her to get mated and start laying. could happen quickly or take a couple of weeks. all you can do now is check every few days. to bad you don't have another hive. i'd say stick a frame of eggs in there from another.

evolved · April 22, 2014, 03:46:12 AM

I don't understand. They cap cells, but not "cups"?

So workers will remove brood if they don't want drones, or if they are damaged somehow?

sc-bee · April 22, 2014, 06:15:13 AM

Quote from: evolved on April 22, 2014, 03:46:12 AM
I don't understand. They cap cells, but not "cups"?

So workers will remove brood if they don't want drones, or if they are damaged somehow?

Some breeds keep cups at all times or most of the time. A cup is what the start of a small cell like structure is called before a larvae is laid in it. They may tear a cup down if they don't need it or lay in it if they need it. After it is laid in 9egg or larvae present) it is referred to as a queen cell.

Yes- if you damage brood or it dies for some reason they will remove it. They will also remove brood if not needed at times. They may also cannibalize brood at times. And then again a very hygienic hive with remove bad brood.... a good trait to have. In short don't get too concerned if you see a few dead brood pulled out.

On the queen it sounds as though they superseded the queen, Not an uncommon event with today's mass produced supplied queens with packages. Remember, they may pull packages the day they ship and put a queen with it from a mating nuc. The queen is basically not theirs. Along with the issues of chemicals, quick- poor mating etc. queens are often superseded..... unfortunately.

evolved · April 22, 2014, 02:28:40 PM

Thanks for the info.

I'd really hate to not lose yet another year, and I can't afford to get more than one at a time(not to mention I only have one complete hive at the moment).

So, I will check every couple of days, since it has been 10-11 days since I first saw queen cups/cells(wasn't sure) and they may have been there days before then.

If I go in there and all the cells are opened, how long should it be before I start seeing eggs? And if I don't, is that the time to requeen?

sc-bee · April 22, 2014, 03:26:46 PM

Open cells less than eight days old. Another + 7 to hatch. Then an avg of 14days to mate and lay. Looking at around 7wks from start to finish to see emerging brood from a queen produced from a new cell.

HomeSteadDreamer · April 24, 2014, 08:52:14 AM

Quote from: evolved on April 22, 2014, 02:28:40 PM

If I go in there and all the cells are opened, how long should it be before I start seeing eggs? And if I don't, is that the time to requeen?

If they are opened now (after they have been closed) then a queen has emerged. The queen at that point needs to go on mating flights. Give it up to 3 weeks to see eggs.

chux · April 24, 2014, 11:47:43 AM

When you go back in, inspect the queen cells. If the end of the cell is opened, the queen successfully emerged. If the side of the cell is torn out, the queen in that cell was killed before hatching. Just good info to know. I started two TBH last year. One from package, and one from swarm. The package tried to swarm and supercede a couple of weeks after instalation. Crazy. That queen was marked and clipped. Did not end well.

sc-bee · April 24, 2014, 01:41:15 PM

Quote from: evolved on April 22, 2014, 02:28:40 PM

If I go in there and all the cells are opened, how long should it be before I start seeing eggs? And if I don't, is that the time to requeen?

Hope you were able to decipher my post

After others posted I realized you meant open as emerged open and not a queen cell that had not been capped yet.

sterling · April 24, 2014, 08:21:43 PM

Quote from: evolved on April 22, 2014, 02:28:40 PM
Thanks for the info.

I'd really hate to not lose yet another year, and I can't afford to get more than one at a time(not to mention I only have one complete hive at the moment).

So, I will check every couple of days, since it has been 10-11 days since I first saw queen cups/cells(wasn't sure) and they may have been there days before then.

If I go in there and all the cells are opened, how long should it be before I start seeing eggs? And if I don't, is that the time to requeen?

You don't need to check every couple days. That much bother will cause them to think the new queen is bad. If you saw capped queen cells wait about two weeks from the time you saw the cells before you check them.

Michael Bush · April 26, 2014, 03:30:43 PM

>Bought my first package last year. I messed up by letting the queen out of her cage 3 days after installing the package. The bees killed her, workers started laying, and then the colony slowly died off.

I would have let her out when I installed them. They should have accepted her by 3 days after installation. They should have accepted her two hours after they were shaken into the package...

>I checked 1 week later, just before I went on my vacation. Comb was being built quickly(I have a tbh), and there was capped honey. I noticed there were several queen cells on multiple combs. I also noticed a few cells with larvae in them. I did NOT see the queen. I didn't have much time so I was not able to look for eggs/did not see any. I fed later that night(had limited time to do things) and noticed a couple of very well developed larvae on the hive floor like they were pulled out.

It is not unusual for them to supersede the queen from a package. This is not a bad thing. A locally mated queen will probably do better anyway...

>One or two of the queen cells were capped. Does that always mean something is in them?

If they are capped there is a larvae or pupae in there.

evolved · April 26, 2014, 10:33:09 PM

Quote from: sc-bee on April 24, 2014, 01:41:15 PM
Quote from: evolved on April 22, 2014, 02:28:40 PM

If I go in there and all the cells are opened, how long should it be before I start seeing eggs? And if I don't, is that the time to requeen?

Hope you were able to decipher my post After others posted I realized you meant open as emerged open and not a queen cell that had not been capped yet.

To be honest, I was extremely tired when I read your post and just gave up, lol. Thanks for clarifying.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I am now not sure I even saw queen cells, and until this thread I assumed all enlarged comb made for queens was considered a "cell". After going back in there the last time, I noticed some looked closed but if you looked closer, they were not completely closed. I guess I assumed they were since there were bees all over them. I did notice 3 worker cells capped but not the same way as the other ones. It was like the tops of each one were connected to form a tunnel over the top of the 3 cells(in a line, not a triangular pattern). Not sure what that was. I also saw no eggs at all.

So bottom line is I am not sure I saw cells the first time around, and once the confusion was cleared up on here and I went back into the hive I could not locate any queen cells.

I happened to see a bee emerging Wednesday(23rd) from a regular cell which would mean the egg was laid around the 2nd. That was only 3 days after I got the queen. Is it feasible the queen would have been let out, mated, and laid eggs in 3 days?

Sorry for the misinformation. I will do better in the future to take notes and not jump to conclusions. Thanks everyone for your help.

chux · April 29, 2014, 11:40:46 PM

A package queen is already mated. If they released her on day 3, she could begin laying immediately. Evolved, if you are near by, i would like to see your set up. I could also help be a resource if you need some help strengthening your hive. Message me if you are interested.

evolved · April 30, 2014, 02:27:22 AM

I did not know they were already mated. I have a LOT to learn. As soon as it's sunny again, I'll check for eggs.

I'll send you a pm.

GSF · April 30, 2014, 06:46:58 AM

Evolved; you at a good forum to learn. I started with the most recent posts and went backwards. To help speed things up you can save the last post you read to your favorite places. Then next time you just click on it to go back to where you left off. Then save a new place, delete the old. Good luck & welcome!

chux · April 30, 2014, 09:38:54 AM

On April 6, you may have seen the bees building out queen cells to supercede the queen. Sounds like you didn't go back in for a couple of weeks? And then you didn't see those same queen cells? That would have given them enough to time to hatch a new queen and begin cutting down the queen cells. They likely have some queen cups just in case. You new queen possibly hatched out the week of April 13th. You would not have seen eggs last week because she is not yet laying. Next week will be tell the tale. If you don't have eggs next week, you probably won't.

The package queen is supposed to be mated. She will nearly always be mated. But sometimes a virgin might squeak through. And there seem to be a lot of package queens that are sub-standard, from many different beek operations. A friend got his first 2 packages early this month. One of the two queens was under-sized. He put her in anyway, and she laid like crazy for a couple of weeks. The colony created 15 supercedure queen cells. We found her dead outside the hive. Over the last two years, I've heard of several beeks getting package queens who were replaced within a month. My own package last year, from a supplier in Kentucky, did this. From the talk I hear, package queens don't seem to be lasting a year, in many instances.

A commercial beek told me that he sees lots of problems with early queens. He says that if we get a package in late march or early April, the queen will likely be superceded, or we will need to buy a replacement when she shuts down in a couple of months. He suggests waiting until mid April to buy the package, or go in prepared to replace the early queen.

So...that early queen was most likely inferior. That's why they replaced her. Next year, if you order a package, it's probably a good idea to wait until mid-april to get a (hopefully) better queen. If you look in there next week and don't see eggs or a mated queen, message me. I know a bee supplier a couple of hours away who MAY have queens to sell. IF you have been queenless for several weeks, I wouldn't want to wait on a queen cell to hatch at this point.

Jackam · April 30, 2014, 11:12:38 AM

QuoteOver the last two years, I've heard of several beeks getting package queens who were replaced within a month.

I installed three packages on the 14th. All three have eggs, capped brood, and larvae, but one of the packages has three supersedure cells going right now.
When I bought the packages, I mentioned to my supplier that it would make it easier on me to have the queens marked and he told me that in many cases, the queen doesn't last long anyway - they supersede - and you're back to looking for a red dot instead of looking for a queen. Looks like he was right!

GSF · April 30, 2014, 10:34:13 PM

Chux; I bought my first package last June. You're right, the queen was missing in February. This year I bought 3 packages and one of the queens spit out about 40 percent drone brood. As of now the other two are egg laying machines but I'll keep this in mind.

evolved · May 08, 2014, 01:10:14 AM

Just an update.

I found the queen today. Not the marked original, so they definitely superseded. Got 9 combs built on bars anywhere from 25%-100%. Plenty of honey, and egg production is going as fast as it can.

Things are looking up...I hope. :)