OTS Notching for splits

biggraham610 · May 09, 2014, 10:40:45 AM

OK, Im doing splits this afternoon, am going to employ OTS notching on a few Nucs. I know the larvae has to be 36 hr or younger. Can it go all the way back to the egg, or does it have to be larvae? Please send a suitible candidate photo if you have one availible. Thanks. Stressed....... G

Robo · May 09, 2014, 11:09:28 AM

You can use eggs, but if there are larvae in the frame that is not notched, you risk that they will float out "right" aged larvae and make emergencies cells.

In other words, a queenless hive is not going to wait 3 days for the eggs to hatch before they attempt to raise a queen.

For your first time with OTS, make extra notches on a variety of egg/larvae stages. As long as some of the larvae you notch is the correct age they will use that over the wrong aged larvae. This way you can learn first hand what the proper larvae looks like. When you go back in a week to take out all but two, make sure the two are located in one of your notches (not floated out larvae).

Rob....

sc-bee · May 09, 2014, 11:47:00 AM

Robo- I have a DVD from beeworks. He mentions in the video, I believe in the section on raising queens in splits, to check back on day four and remove any cells that are capped because they would have been started from floated larvae as you have mentioned. How do you feel about the process of taking out the capped cells on the fourth day.

biggraham610 · May 09, 2014, 12:34:03 PM

Thanks to you both. I just learned that a package I installed on 4-9 is now queenless and all the broodcomb is filled with honey and pollen. could I just incorporate the bees and honey frames equally among my splits and take just the brood frames and bees from my mother hives?

Robo · May 09, 2014, 12:52:20 PM

Quote from: sc-bee on May 09, 2014, 11:47:00 AM
Robo- I have a DVD from beeworks. He mentions in the video, I believe in the section on raising queens in splits, to check back on day four and remove any cells that are capped because they would have been started from floated larvae as you have mentioned. How do you feel about the process of taking out the capped cells on the fourth day.

You can, but it is just an added step since you will be going in again in 3 days to take out all but 2 of the OTS cells. I think in this case, you can tell the floated cells on day 7 because they will not be where you notched.

Robo · May 09, 2014, 12:54:28 PM

Quote from: biggraham610 on May 09, 2014, 12:34:03 PM
Thanks to you both. I just learned that a package I installed on 4-9 is now queenless and all the broodcomb is filled with honey and pollen. could I just incorporate the bees and honey frames equally among my splits and take just the brood frames and bees from my mother hives?

Sure, but remember most of them at this point are older bees and more likely return to the original hive location unless you move the nucs to another yard miles away.

biggraham610 · May 09, 2014, 01:43:03 PM

Thanks, here goes ............... I will update on findings and success. Thanks for your input. G

sc-bee · May 09, 2014, 02:00:08 PM

Quote from: Robo on May 09, 2014, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: sc-bee on May 09, 2014, 11:47:00 AM
Robo- I have a DVD from beeworks. He mentions in the video, I believe in the section on raising queens in splits, to check back on day four and remove any cells that are capped because they would have been started from floated larvae as you have mentioned. How do you feel about the process of taking out the capped cells on the fourth day.

You can, but it is just an added step since you will be going in again in 3 days to take out all but 2 of the OTS cells. I think in this case, you can tell the floated cells on day 7 because they will not be where you notched.

Understood but if not using OTS and just a walk away spit etc is it a good practice?

Robo · May 09, 2014, 02:34:52 PM

Quote
Understood but if not using OTS and just a walk away spit etc is it a good practice?

Not sure I understand. Walk away splits leave the bees no other choice but to float the larvae, that is one of the reasons I don't recommend them.

Personally I like to have queen cell built by large strong colonies and then give them to the nucs.

biggraham610 · May 09, 2014, 02:42:22 PM

Well, one hive down, I didnt notch any cells, the frames I pulled already had capped and uncapped queen cells. To be quite honest, I was a bit overwhelmed. Hope I didnt transfer my queen, but as powerful as that hive is, they are in a position to rectify any mistake I made. queen cells on the bottom are swarm cells right? May have just avoided one, because that is the cells I moved. Also saw one in the lower deep that was more in the middle of the frame. As much as she was laying, I couldnt imagine them wanting to superscede. :?
hopefully if they are swarm cells once she hatches they will think they already swarmed...
More confused now than when I started....... :chop:

Robo · May 09, 2014, 02:57:16 PM

Just hope you weren't too late. Did you see any eggs? If not the queen may be getting ready to swarm or perhaps already did. Just removing swarm cell will not convince them to stop swarming. I have found it best to make a nuc with the queen and move her to another yard. Leave at least one swarm cell in the original hive (can make a few more nucs with the others if you want) and let them hatch and take over. The temporary quenlessness makes the hive believe the queen left with a swarm. The brood break is also good for honey production (no larvae to feed) and varroa control (no larvae to feed off of).

sc-bee · May 09, 2014, 03:03:42 PM

Quote from: Robo on May 09, 2014, 02:34:52 PM
Quote
Understood but if not using OTS and just a walk away spit etc is it a good practice?

Not sure I understand. Walk away splits leave the bees no other choice but to float the larvae, that is one of the reasons I don't recommend them.

Personally I like to have queen cell built by large strong colonies and then give them to the nucs.

I will have to drag the video back out. I understand what you are saying about floated larvae in walk away splits. I think his reference was too the bees starting with an older not well fed larvae that does not receive the correct feeding vs a new hatched egg. He states go in and take out the capped cells on day four because they have not received the correct feeding. I need to locate it and review it again.

sc-bee · May 09, 2014, 03:04:40 PM

Sorry bingham did not mean to hi-jack your thread.

Robo · May 09, 2014, 03:40:19 PM

Quote from: sc-bee on May 09, 2014, 03:03:42 PM
I will have to drag the video back out.

David Eyre is a smart beekeeper and if he said it, I believe there is a valid reason. I use to get queens from David before 9/11 when he stopped shipping them to the US.

I can see it potentially being a solution to a problem when grafting queen. You always hear "bees will never make a queen from an egg that is too old". But there is a caveat to this that you never hear. "As long as there is 'right' aged larvae available". Bees will attempt to make a queen even from an unfertilized egg if it is the only thing available (laying worker hive).

So, depending on how you make up a cell builder, there is the possibility that they are left for a short period of time with nothing but "too old" larvae, so they would start cells from it. By waiting to day 4 and looking for capped cells, you would remove these bad candidates.

sc-bee · May 09, 2014, 03:44:32 PM

Thanks Robo

biggraham610 · May 09, 2014, 06:16:16 PM

Quote from: Robo on May 09, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
Just hope you weren't too late. Did you see any eggs? If not the queen may be getting ready to swarm or perhaps already did. Just removing swarm cell will not convince them to stop swarming. I have found it best to make a nuc with the queen and move her to another yard. Leave at least one swarm cell in the original hive (can make a few more nucs with the others if you want) and let them hatch and take over. The temporary quenlessness makes the hive believe the queen left with a swarm. The brood break is also good for honey production (no larvae to feed) and varroa control (no larvae to feed off of).

Thats why I went so deep Robo, Looking for her, I never could find her. If they already swarmed I missed it. I doubt it though, the box was Packed. So in retrospect, I should hope I did move her....... Either way, I will try and keep my eyes open for a swarm and just have to wait and see on the nucs if they get open mated. I should know in a few weeks. If they dont I can always combine back with someone else I suppose. Yes, there were some very young larvae, honestly not sure if I saw eggs, It was 2 deeps with probably 5-6 frames in each of capped and open brood. Thanks. Again. Tommorrow I will try the other hive which came off of a monster swarm.

GSF · May 09, 2014, 09:43:14 PM

b, Are you skilled at finding eggs? I'm not - but that won't stop me from giving you some advice 8-) (lol).

I have got better at finding them. Two methods, 1) get the sun to your back and move the frame around so it's like a flashlight shining all around the inside circle of the cell. 2) I took 10framer's advice and bought me some jewelers visors. Great little magnifying trick to help tired eyes like mine.

good luck!

biggraham610 · May 09, 2014, 10:56:52 PM

Quote from: GSF on May 09, 2014, 09:43:14 PM
b, Are you skilled at finding eggs? I'm not - but that won't stop me from giving you some advice 8-) (lol).

I have got better at finding them. Two methods, 1) get the sun to your back and move the frame around so it's like a flashlight shining all around the inside circle of the cell. 2) I took 10framer's advice and bought me some jewelers visors. Great little magnifying trick to help tired eyes like mine.

good luck!

No Im not really skilled at finding eggs. Especially with the frame crawling. Man those boxes were PACKED. I tried to put the sun behind it, I might need to get some specs. Seems like I spent eternity looking at each frame queen searching and egg searching,but probably not. I will be in an open field tommorrrow on the other hive, better lighting if the rain holds off. I have seen eggs before, just not when I realy wanted to.......lol.......imagine that! G...... :chop: