Benefits of removing the queen from a strong hive

TwoHoneys · May 13, 2014, 07:41:16 PM

Help me think this through, please...

During a flow, if I simply remove a successfully overwintered queen from a strong hive and allow the hive to replace her, I understand that I can

1. Increase honey stores by about 100 lbs,
2. Break the brood cycle and thereby also break the mite cycle,
3. Get a new queen with survivor genes.

I understand that it takes about 100 lbs of honey to feed a month's worth of brood. So, if I remove the queen and there isn't any new brood for a month, won't I get a heck of a lot of honey?

And why haven't I heard of this idea before?! Have I been under a rock?

-Liz

SueCT · May 13, 2014, 10:18:33 PM

Sounds very much like a succinct description of Mel Disselkoen's great presentation on this very subject. If interested, you can see the YouTube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIYz65Vquxg

TwoHoneys · May 13, 2014, 10:21:22 PM

Yes, SueCT, that's exactly where I heard this theory. Have you tried it?

-Liz

biggraham610 · May 13, 2014, 11:46:51 PM

I think he calls it the powerhouse honey hive............ :-D

Wolfer · May 14, 2014, 12:15:56 AM

I do this with any queen that a year old to control swarming. It works well for that. As far as honey production there's a couple creveats.

This has to be done as the main flow is just getting underway. Comb needs to be drawn before hand. My bees don't draw well without a queen. While they do store honey that would be fed to brood and the workforce is bigger because they don't need nurse bees. They don't seem to go at it like a queen right hive. Everything seems to be a little lethargic.

Do it too late and you run a real risk of a swarm. When I've done it too early the bees filled the two bottom deeps but never touched the supers.
I was still able to take quite a bit of honey but no more than the queen right hives beside them.

I think the key is that they be in full blown gather mode when you pull the queen.

I would really like to hear some other people's experiences on this.
Woody Roberts

10framer · May 14, 2014, 11:46:49 AM

i've played around with it and had similar experiences to what wolfer described. they tend to fill the brood chamber before they draw new comb then you get a new queen with nowhere to lay.
if you time it right and have the drawn comb it does work better but a lot of that extra 100 pounds ends up downstairs. i don't extract from brood chambers.

sterling · May 14, 2014, 04:45:21 PM

Some things beeks do managing hives put too much work into beekeeping. It would be easier to me to have two hives side by side then to try to get the honey of two hives out of one.

MsCarol · May 14, 2014, 05:21:10 PM

Like Wolfer, I too discovered that it might not work that well. I pulled the old queen into a Nuc on April 19 because I also wanted to expand my number of hives. Well....it worked. On May 6th that same hive swarmed with their new virgin queen leaving two still capped queen cells. Thankfully I caught the swarm and it is buzzing along building. Once these thunder storms move out, me thinks I best peek because they may already be out of room. We are in full white clover and blackberry bloom right now. All the hives are hauling stuff in. Supers on the ready to add once the rain quits.

TwoHoneys · May 14, 2014, 06:19:06 PM

I'm gonna try it. I pulled a queen yesterday. But I hadn't thought about the fact that they'll backfill the broodnest...now I'll try to figure out how to give the new queen some laying room.

-Liz

biggraham610 · May 14, 2014, 07:54:28 PM

Keep us posted Liz. Good Luck. G

Wolfer · May 14, 2014, 08:49:34 PM

I've been thinking about this today.

I've pulled the queen on a couple. Friday I can harvest the extra queen cells. At that time I'll move the cells in the hive to the bottom. Supers on next with the rest of the capped brood on top. About the time the queen goes on her mating flights I'll swap the supers with the top box which should be pretty empty.

If it works I'll let youns know.

Woody Roberts

TwoHoneys · May 14, 2014, 08:58:31 PM

I use all medium depth supers, so if they backfill the brood nest, I'll just swap those supers out with empty drawn comb in about 3 weeks. I'm on it, folks!

Dallasbeek · May 17, 2014, 12:48:22 AM

Okay, I don't want to hijack your string, but I have a couple of questions about how this all fits in with the idea of beeding local survivor queens from stock that has survived two winters, which is what some more experienced beekeepers advocate? If we're going to improve the survival ability of our native stock, why do we replace any queen more than one year old? Aren't we diminishing the good DNA of local stock and bringing in DNA from somewhere else, and we don't know the DNA or survival ability of that stock, or of the drones that queen has mated with? If our goal is to improve the harvest this year, maybe that's good. If our goal is more longtime, what's the advantage? Am I totally confused about what we're doing, or are we working against ourselves sometimes in our own interests? I admit that we are "using" honeybees for our own advantage, but don't we have a duty to give them something in return? Quid pro quo, as we lawyers call it? I'm not trying to start a revolution here. I'm just asking about these seemingly contrary ideas I see on the forum. I'd like to see every beekeeper, whether hobbyist or commercial, prosper and find happiness, but there seem to be different ways of going about it, and I'm mixed up about what's right and good.

Gary

sc-bee · May 17, 2014, 12:56:40 PM

Quote from: Dallasbeek on May 17, 2014, 12:48:22 AM
Okay, I don't want to hijack your string, but I have a couple of questions about how this all fits in with the idea of beeding local survivor queens from stock that has survived two winters, which is what some more experienced beekeepers advocate? If we're going to improve the survival ability of our native stock, why do we replace any queen more than one year old? Aren't we diminishing the good DNA of local stock and bringing in DNA from somewhere else, and we don't know the DNA or survival ability of that stock, or of the drones that queen has mated with?

Gary

I think you missed the key point counselor ....... or maybe I did :-D

>During a flow, if I simply remove a successfully overwintered queen from a strong hive and allow the hive to replace her

10framer · May 17, 2014, 04:32:51 PM

Dallas, i start a nuc with the old queen when i do it.

Wolfer · May 17, 2014, 10:09:38 PM

Dallas
I do like SC bee. I don't kill the old queen she gets to start a new hive. Next spring I'll do it again if she hasn't been superseded.
I have two queens that will be 4 this year.

sc-bee · May 17, 2014, 10:49:31 PM

Quote from: Wolfer on May 17, 2014, 10:09:38 PM
Dallas
I do like SC bee. I don't kill the old queen she gets to start a new hive. Next spring I'll do it again if she hasn't been superseded.
I have two queens that will be 4 this year.

That was framer but we three agree..... :-D scary ain't it :)

10framer · May 17, 2014, 11:27:48 PM

i'll be splitting my early splits in a few weeks and letting those old queens do it again.

D Semple · May 18, 2014, 01:13:56 AM

Accidentally trying this,

One of my hives turned monstrous, beyond huge, 8 mediums packed overflowing. Figured they were about to swarm for sure this next week. Some queen cups with larve, but nothing capped. Broke it down to split it into thirds, but happened to stumble on the queen so I just split off 2 boxes with the queen and brood bees and added a couple of drawn supers to both.

Don

Better.to.Bee.than.not · May 18, 2014, 01:32:03 AM

Quote from: Dallasbeek on May 17, 2014, 12:48:22 AM
Okay, I don't want to hijack your string, but I have a couple of questions about how this all fits in with the idea of beeding local survivor queens from stock that has survived two winters, which is what some more experienced beekeepers advocate? If we're going to improve the survival ability of our native stock, why do we replace any queen more than one year old? Aren't we diminishing the good DNA of local stock and bringing in DNA from somewhere else, and we don't know the DNA or survival ability of that stock, or of the drones that queen has mated with? If our goal is to improve the harvest this year, maybe that's good. If our goal is more longtime, what's the advantage?

As said above but not outright saying it, using this system IS breeding local survivor stock. What is done is basically removal of the queen, and then pushing the hive to take one of their cells (Aka their own DNA and survivor stock.) and making a new queen, so since it is a queen made from their own, it is preserving their DNA and at the same time taking some of the eggs/new larva as well as some of the nurse bees with it, out of the hive and making a hive building box, and pushing them to make more queens as well. IE somewhat doing a split. Some call this tricking the swarm into thinking they swarmed, and it is all the same genetics (generally, the new queen when going on her mating flight will get fertilized by numerous males introducing new genetics) as it all comes from the same hive. This uses the tendency of a new swarm not swarming once it get's to its new home to prevent swarming in general, and also uses the absence of laying during the new queen development to break the mite cycle at a time when they are building up as well to prevent them from over running a hive during their power cycle later in the year. If done correctly it pushes/delays their peak far enough into the winter when there is also a non laying period, which then knocks them back again, thus holding them in check.