secondary swarms

ScituateMA · June 06, 2014, 02:45:47 AM

I caught three small swarms on sunday on three different trees like 4 yards away from each other.. They are like between one and two frames. Since they are small swarms I thought they are nonlaying queens, secondary swarms but when I checked them on Wednesday, three days after I caught them, I saw eggs. All three queens are laying eggs. Can we then definitely say that they are the old queens, and not secondary swarms ? But as I said they are 1and or 2 frame swarms. Is there any chance that they can be recently hatched virgin queens but not old queens?
I do not think virgin queens can mate before they swarm. Does anyone know any extraordinary situations that swarms with virgin queen can start laying eggs in 2 or 3 days ?

marktrl · June 06, 2014, 05:10:54 PM

Just had about the same thing happen. I had a frame with multiple cells on it in queen less hive that cast 2 secondary swarms of about a cup of bees and the queens started laying right away. The new queen in the hive had capped brood before the swarms so I figure the swarm queens went out mated, came back then left with a few bees.

BeeMaster2 · June 06, 2014, 06:24:44 PM

Secondary swarms have virgin queens that the bees have been keeping apart in the hive. If they start laying within days of swarming then they are the old queen from a hive. May not have been your hives.
They may have absconded from their old hives.
Jim

marktrl · June 06, 2014, 06:34:27 PM

Considering I didn't have an old queen in the hive I saw them come from it wasn't an old queen. One thing I've learned about keeping bees is NOTHING they do is definite.

Kathyp · June 06, 2014, 07:07:26 PM

you can have multiple mated queens in a hive. they don't usually stay, or last long. you also can have virgins that quickly mate and start laying. and...they may not have come from your hive. :-)

tjc1 · June 07, 2014, 12:46:17 AM

I split a hive by taking out all the swarm cells and putting them in another hive. I noticed yesterday that the hive with the original queen had two queens piping inside - I must have missed a cell... Today on the inner cover I saw a new queen hanging out all by herself!?!? Assumed she was hiding from big bad original queen, but should I have taken her out? Might she be waiting to lead out a swarm - maybe after mating?

BlueBee · June 07, 2014, 01:47:35 AM

2 or 3 days to mate and start laying eggs seems pretty quick to me, but I'll have to admit I've never looked in on swarms I've caught that quickly. I figured it might be best not to disrupt a swarm and risk them abandoning the hive for a more peaceful home.

I just caught 2 secondary swarms from one of my hives on June 5th and have them in nucs. I'll peak in on them and see how long they take to start laying. From raising queens, I would have expected it would take about a week for the first egg, but who knows.

MsCarol · June 07, 2014, 02:13:37 PM

Is it possible the young queen had already made her mating flights but got grounded by weather before the swarm could leave? Do they always swarm as virgins? Secondary swarms that is?

Kathyp · June 07, 2014, 02:55:57 PM

i have never picked up a queenless swarm. i have picked up multiple swarms from the same hive that all had virgins. i have picked up multiple swarms from the same hive with mated queens. the only reason i know they were from the same hives is that both were bee trees and both observed swarms by home owners.

they don't always do anything ;) in after swarms, my experience is that they will more often than not, have virgin queens...

Michael Bush · June 07, 2014, 06:07:00 PM

There are so many possibilities in a swarm. First, there is the mass confusion that often causes multiple swarms to end up together. Second, the virgins are confined until the last one leaves. Depending on weather this could be a week or more, meaning the virgin is hardened and ready to mate by the time she leaves...

ScituateMA · June 07, 2014, 06:27:47 PM

Hi all,
the weather was not bad before swarming.i do not think weather is the case here that queens had to wait till a nice weather.
As Kathyp says, can I have 3 mated queens in a hive and they cast 3 swarms?
which one do you think is more possible? multiple mated queens in a hive and cast 3 swarms just 5 yards away from my hives on three different trees or they are not from my hives? is it a very little possibility they came from someone elses hives? that as far as i know there is nobody has bee hives in my instant neighborhood. or a third option that i can not think of.
I always thought that secondary swarm has virgin queens. as marktrl said i guess virgin queens can mate before they leave.
what is the earliest time that virgin starts layin eggs you have ever seen? my answer is 8 days.
I guess it is good to mark and better to number the queens:)