splitting a recent split/new split also

rookie2531 · July 20, 2014, 04:45:48 AM

OK, I split my hive 10 days ago, into a ten frame hive. So now I have 2-10 frame hives, one with a queen and one with queen cells in it. I built four, 5 frame nucs, ( the plans for nucs out of 1 sheet of plywood on beesource). I am going in today and splitting the one with the queen cells to hopefully get two queens out of that one. And since I have more nucs, I might split the queenright hive again to have them make another queen. I am thinking the more queens, the more brood, the more nectar and better chances of them making it through winter. The nucs I have made though has no ventilation holes, no top entrance, and no way to top feed. I will probably drill a vent hole near the top, in the back, but for top feeding I was thinking of drilling a hole right in lid and pushing a 20 oz. Water bottle on top. Has Anybody done that, and if so how you seal it so rain don't leak in? I was thinking just smear some burr comb around it. I am thinking also to set the nucs on top the donor hives? Any thoughts?

Spear · July 20, 2014, 05:13:35 AM

I have been to a presentation by a very good beekeeper and the way feeds nucs is to put a glass jar, with a few small holes poked in the lid, upside down on the frames through a hole in the lid of the nuc. He makes sure that the jar fits snugly in the hole so that the rain doesn't get in. I would not put the split on top of the donor hive as the bees will just return to their old home - at least that is my understanding of what will happen. If youn don't have anywhere else to put the nuc/split and you do put it on top of the donor hive then face the entrance in the opposite direction and put big leafy branches in front so they will reorientate to the new hive.
Good luck!

BeeMaster2 · July 20, 2014, 06:15:43 AM

Rookie,
Your bees need time to recover from the split. They also need time to get ready for winter, especially where you are. How cold and how long are your winters?
Do you have a good flow on? I takes a lot of pollen and nectar for your bees to feed their brood and store honey.
Sugar water is not the same as nectar.
A common error by new bees is to split the hives to the point that none of them survive.
If this was spring time, your plan would probably be fine.
Jim

rookie2531 · July 20, 2014, 08:27:19 AM

Jim, it gets pretty cold here. We get are first frost sometimes beginning of October. In middle winter normal lows are 15-20 deg. Far. The last frost usually end of April. I think the sourwood bloom is winding down but we have one more tree (can't remember the name) and goldenrod yet to come. I was worried about them not making it through winter, so I made the first split thinking, another queen is more brood for more forage and bigger cluster. Now the split has more than one frame of queen cells, I am getting greedy sort of speak thinking, more queens, more brood, more forage and even bigger cluster as I was going to combine them all back to two hives later this fall and probably let the best queens rule and the others, well die, I guess. Right now I have them in full ten frame hives that are Not completely drawn out yet because there was 7 frames of foundation in the top deep. So I divided the foundations and they both have like 3 empties and I set mediums on both with foundation (none drawn) on top the deeps. I am feeding 1/1 with hbh and gave them 1/8 piece of patty to see if they would use it and after inspection, they were on it. I also read that they draw better in nucs, so I built them last night and painting them this morning. But if it is best to leave them alone, I will. I did not know about recovery?

rookie2531 · July 20, 2014, 08:47:32 AM

Oh, one more thought. I am also trying to better the odds of even getting a second queen. Two mating flights are better than one.

Wolfer · July 20, 2014, 09:50:55 AM

My weather is not too different from yours and I would split the queen cells. If one doesn't return you can recombine.

I probably wouldent split the one with the queen if it's only in a 10 frame deep. You may need some resources from her to help the nucs thru the winter.

More queens only equals more brood, nectar etc if they have the support staff to raise the brood. A queen with two frames of bees takes a long time to build up. Way more time than you have. If you split the queen cells into two five frame nucs that actually have five frames of bees your chances of success will be a lot greater.

rookie2531 · July 20, 2014, 10:21:15 AM

After reading Jim's reply and yours wolfer, I am thinking of just splitting the queenless into two nucs. I can use the other 2 nucs, upside down as top feeders and venting. If everything don't work out then I still have the queenright hive. I really don't want to rob the hive of resources but if worse comes, I guess I debate that when time comes. Thanks to all three for replying so quickly, I was hoping to do this today but the weather don't look so good.

biggraham610 · July 20, 2014, 10:36:03 AM

Quote from: rookie2531 on July 20, 2014, 10:21:15 AM
After reading Jim's reply and yours wolfer, I am thinking of just splitting the queenless into two nucs. I can use the other 2 nucs, upside down as top feeders and venting. If everything don't work out then I still have the queenright hive. I really don't want to rob the hive of resources but if worse comes, I guess I debate that when time comes. Thanks to all three for replying so quickly, I was hoping to do this today but the weather don't look so good.

Good idea this late in the season in my opinion. You recieved good advice from 2 sources that have always given me good answers. Good luck. G :chop:

sterling · July 20, 2014, 10:57:55 AM

It doesn't sound like the hive is strong enough to split that many times. The one split this late in the year is probably enough especially since they are making their queen. You won't have any emerging brood for about seven weeks and hive will get week before it starts to build up.

Wolfer · July 20, 2014, 03:21:39 PM

Something I've done in the past that worked pretty well for me. Since my nucs will always be made up with at least one frame of capped brood. In a week or two that frame will be empty. I'll shake the few bees that's on it off and trade it to the queen right hive for another one with brood of some sort on it. This doesn't hurt your queen right hive much but greatly helps the queen less one.

rookie2531 · July 20, 2014, 03:37:36 PM

Good to know, It will probably help the queen hive as it will give her non stop laying area.

sc-bee · July 20, 2014, 09:14:43 PM

To me soda bottles, coke bottles etc were always a pain and flimsy. Just use a qt mason jar and find a solid instead of a two piece lid that fits the standard jar. You can find a standard whole saw that is the size of the lid to drill a hole. To seal just put a lid without holes back in place.

As already said, more splits do not mean more brood or bees. They have to have the nurse bees/ foragers to support brood. Also if in shb territory and feeding pollen to weak splits you are begging for disaster... :'(

rookie2531 · July 20, 2014, 09:30:20 PM

I made some inner covers to fit the nucs and drilled 2 inch holes in the bottoms and covered it with wire mesh, since it was raining. Before it started raining though, I went to see the hives and noticed that both were busier than I have ever seen. About 50/50 bringing in pollen and nectar or water. I really never seen it so busy. I bought one patty when I picked up the package and still have a piece in the freezer. I will use the nucs upside down as top feeder and use mason jars. Thanks for the info sc-bee.

Michael Bush · July 24, 2014, 07:56:40 AM

If you did a walk away split, one side has a queen, the other has a virgin (you hope) and probably no brood yet. You'd need to provide a queen if you split that one and find the virgin (doubtful).

Wolfer · July 24, 2014, 06:34:15 PM

Mike
He had queen cells on two different frames of the queen less half of his walkaway split. Hence my opinion to split that one into two nucs.