How much sugar (by weight) is in my sugar syrup (by volume)?

ugcheleuce · October 05, 2014, 03:06:29 PM

Hello everyone

I want to be able to determine how much sugar (by weight) there is in the sugar syrup (by volume) that I feed to the bees. This is because it is easier to keep track of and measure volumes of syrup per hive than to keep track of how much sugar I put in every jerry can and how much of each jerry can I have left every time.

I googled a bit and I found a way to determine this, but please can anyone here confirm that the method that I hit with google is actually correct?

First get the brix value of your syrup. The brix value of syrup is the percentage sugar (by weight) of the total solution (by weight). So if you add 10 pounds of sugar to 5 pounds of water, then your solution weighs 15 pounds in total, and it has 66.6% sugar (by weight) in it.

Then, look up the weight per volume in a brix look-up table (there are several of those, but here is one of them). The brix look-up table tells you that a brix value of 66.6% has a pound/gallon value of 7.365.

So... if your syrup is made with 10 pounds of sugar plus 5 pounds of water, then there is 7.36 pounds of sugar per gallon of syrup. Note that this refer specifically to cane sugar, and syrup at 68 fahrenheit.

Is this calculation accurate?

Thanks
Samuel

iddee · October 05, 2014, 04:47:25 PM

That calculation may be correct, but much complicated. 1:1, sugar weight is half, sugar and water weighs approx. 8 lb. per gallon, so 1 gal. mix is 4 lb. sugar.

2:1 is 2/3 sugar, so 1 gal. mix is approx. 6 lb. sugar.

Close enough for the bees, since weather, number of bees, amount of brood, etc. will effect the amount needed much more than the rounding of weight.

ugcheleuce · October 05, 2014, 06:08:53 PM

Quote from: iddee on October 05, 2014, 04:47:25 PM
That calculation may be correct, but much complicated.

Well, the theory is complicated. Once the theory is accepted, one only has to draw a table, like I've done here:

Jim134 · October 06, 2014, 10:03:54 AM

Quote from: iddee on October 05, 2014, 04:47:25 PM
That calculation may be correct, but much complicated. 1:1, sugar weight is half, sugar and water weighs approx. 8 lb. per gallon, so 1 gal. mix is 4 lb. sugar.

2:1 is 2/3 sugar, so 1 gal. mix is approx. 6 lb. sugar.

Close enough for the bees, since weather, number of bees, amount of brood, etc. will effect the amount needed much more than the rounding of weight.

is not 1pint of water a pound. ?? it would be four pints which is 2 quarts of water not a gallon for
1:1

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

iddee · October 06, 2014, 10:28:25 AM

Yes, 2 quarts water plus 2 quarts sugar makes 1 gal. mix.

BeeMaster2 · October 06, 2014, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: iddee on October 06, 2014, 10:28:25 AM
Yes, 2 quarts water plus 2 quarts sugar makes 1 gal. mix.

Iddee,
That would work if it were something like sand where the 2 molecules do not mix. Water and sugar intertwine. 2 quarts of water and 2 quarts of sugar, after mixed, make about 3 quarts of liquid. That why you do not fill a gallon container up half way with water and then fill it the rest of the way with water to make one to one solution. It also explains why a gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds and a gallon of honey weighs about 12 pounds.
Jim

iddee · October 06, 2014, 03:17:18 PM

Jim, I use half gallon jars. I have filled them half with with sugar and then filled with water. I have measured 1 quart sugar and 1 quart water. The difference is about 1 in. in the jar. Not enough to matter to me. Try it, you'll like it. :-D

loumaro · October 06, 2014, 04:28:23 PM

sawdustmaker It don't work with sand either even if the sand doesn't dissolve, the water
takes up the space between the grains of sand. Fill a gallon jug with dry sand, then see how much water you can add before it runs over.

buzzbee · October 06, 2014, 07:38:52 PM

I generaaly put water to the halfway mark then top up with the sugar.
Shall we throw out an equasion for the moisture the bees remove from the syrup before they cap it? We may as well make it real hard!! :-D :-D

ugcheleuce · October 07, 2014, 05:01:54 AM

Quote from: buzzbee on October 06, 2014, 07:38:52 PM
Shall we throw in an equation for the moisture the bees remove from the syrup before they cap it? We may as well make it real hard!! :-D :-D

Actually... if the method you use to measure the bees' readiness for winter is by weighing the hive, then you might just have to do that. :)

Michael Bush · October 07, 2014, 09:23:03 AM

I never tried to measure it that accurately, but I use 20 pounds (pints) of sugar and 12 pints (pounds) of water and what I end up with will fit in a five gallon bucket and I don't have to worry too much about spilling it...

ugcheleuce · October 07, 2014, 09:55:06 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on October 07, 2014, 09:23:03 AM
I never tried to measure it that accurately, but...

All of these formulas may appear to favour overly accurate measurement, but in reality the only thing that counts is knowing whether one has fed one's bees 5 kg or 15 kg of sugar. I suppose experienced beekeepers "just know" how much they're feeding the bees, but newbies like myself need to measure things at bit more often before we get acquainted with bulk.

On a more pricise note,knowing how strong a solution is can help you know how much more sugar you can reasonably expect to dissolve without too much effort. Some people have very good senses and a good eye, but not me -- I can't tell the difference between 1:2 and 2:1 syrup if I dip my finger in it and taste it, or if I look at how it sloshes in the jerry can (unless I have both at the same time, to compare them, only then perhaps...).

An example: I made syrup using the shake method, and the next morning some sugar had floated to the bottom of the can. The clear liquid above the sugar is syrupy, yes, but it would be helpful to know an easy method of telling how much sugar is dissolved in it.

QuoteI use 20 pounds (pints) of sugar and 12 pints (pounds) of water and...

You sly dog ;-) nice living in the US, where a "pint" of water weighs one pound (not so on the other side of the pond).

iddee · October 07, 2014, 10:17:18 AM

How much you feed them means nothing. Keep tabs on the weight of the hive. You may feed 10 K and they consume 1 K, or you may feed 20 K and they consume 19 K. It's the amount stored that you need to know, not how much went in.

Jim134 · October 07, 2014, 01:42:20 PM

Samuel

How much does a liter of water weigh in kilos. ??
Is't the sugar packages also in kilos ??

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

ugcheleuce · October 07, 2014, 02:30:36 PM

Quote from: iddee on October 07, 2014, 10:17:18 AM
How much you feed them means nothing. ... It's the amount stored that you need to know, not how much went in.

It depends on whether the guidelines that you follow are per-feed or per-store. Per store only works if you have the ability to weigh the hive (which I don't). Per feed requires you to keep tabs on how much you put in.

ugcheleuce · October 07, 2014, 02:35:49 PM

Quote from: Jim 134 on October 07, 2014, 01:42:20 PM
How much does a liter of water weigh in kilos?
Is't the sugar packages also in kilos?

In my country (NL), sugar is sold in packages of 0.5 kg and 1.5 kg. In my previous country (ZA), sugar is sold in packages of 0.5 kg, 1 kg, 2 kg and 5 kg. I have no idea how sugar is sold in the UK.

One litre of water weighs one kilogram.

One US pint of water weighs one pound. One UK pint of water weighs more than one pound. Still, UK beekeepers mix their sugar and water by the same ratio: so many pints of water with so many pounds of sugar. Only the mixture will be less syrupy because the UK pint is more than the US pint.

Richard M · January 17, 2015, 12:35:18 AM

Quote from: ugcheleuce on October 05, 2014, 03:06:29 PM
Hello everyone

I want to be able to determine how much sugar (by weight) there is in the sugar syrup (by volume) that I feed to the bees. This is because it is easier to keep track of and measure volumes of syrup per hive than to keep track of how much sugar I put in every jerry can and how much of each jerry can I have left every time.

I googled a bit and I found a way to determine this, but please can anyone here confirm that the method that I hit with google is actually correct?

First get the brix value of your syrup. The brix value of syrup is the percentage sugar (by weight) of the total solution (by weight). So if you add 10 pounds of sugar to 5 pounds of water, then your solution weighs 15 pounds in total, and it has 66.6% sugar (by weight) in it.

Then, look up the weight per volume in a brix look-up table (there are several of those, but here is one of them). The brix look-up table tells you that a brix value of 66.6% has a pound/gallon value of 7.365.

So... if your syrup is made with 10 pounds of sugar plus 5 pounds of water, then there is 7.36 pounds of sugar per gallon of syrup. Note that this refer specifically to cane sugar, and syrup at 68 fahrenheit.

Is this calculation accurate?

Thanks
Samuel

1 litre of water = 1Kg.

1 kg of sugar = 1 kg.

A 2:1 mix is 2 kg of sugar to 1 litre of water etc etc etc.

ugcheleuce · January 17, 2015, 01:25:48 PM

Quote from: Richard M on January 17, 2015, 12:35:18 AM
1 litre of water = 1Kg.
1 kg of sugar = 1 kg.
A 2:1 mix is 2 kg of sugar to 1 litre of water, etc.

Wow... reviving an old thread here. Anyway, I posted my question on another beekeeping forum as well, and got the answer there eventually.

You seem to misunderstand what I was getting it, Richard, so let me explain with a practical example:

If you have 10 litres of syrup, and it weighs 12 kg, then how much sugar is in it?

If you think that saying "1 kg water = 1 litre water" is sufficient information, then do this: try to work out the answer on paper, and when you're done, look at the solution below.

...

For the solution, ignore the white table that I posted earlier in this thread (which I created based on a misunderstanding of how brix works), and download the complete brix table again, here. The key lies the third column and the second column of the brix sugar table.

1. To use the table, convert your volume and mass to metric.
(our example: 10 litres, 12 kilograms)

2. To get the "specific gravity" (SG) of the syrup, divide the mass by the volume.
(12 kilograms / 10 litres = 1.2)

3. To get the percentage of sugar (%), look up the SG in the third column, and you'll see the % in the second column.

(in our example, an SG of 1.2 corresponds to a % of 44.1)

4. To get the amount of sugar (kg/litre), multiply the % by the SG.
(1.2 x 44.1 = 52.9 kg of sugar per litre of syrup)

So, if 10 litres of syrup weighs 12 kilograms, then it contains 5.29 kg of sugar.

Richard M · January 17, 2015, 06:39:48 PM

Why not just make up a 2:1 or 1:1 or whatever mix you use, then measure the final volume of syrup, so you can calculate how many Kg of sugar per litre of syrup, then work back from that?

ugcheleuce · January 18, 2015, 09:23:36 AM

Quote from: Richard M on January 17, 2015, 06:39:48 PMWhy not just make up a 2:1 or 1:1 or whatever mix you use, then measure the final volume of syrup, so you can calculate how many Kg of sugar per litre of syrup, then work back from that?

What would be the use of that? :-) Even if you make up another batch of syrup for which you know the ratios, you'd still be stuck with that other mystery syrup that contains the unknown amount of sugar.

I realise that the theory seems a bit dry and complicated. And unfortunately there is no easy formula that one can apply -- one has to look it up in tables. The only way to make it easier is to make the table simpler, e.g.:

if (mass / volume) = 1.15, then it's a 1:2 solution
if (mass / volume) = 1.18, then it's a 2:3 solution
if (mass / volume) = 1.23, then it's a 1:1 solution
if (mass / volume) = 1.29, then it's a 3:2 solution
if (mass / volume) = 1.33, then it's a 2:1 solution

(mass in lb or kg, volume in US pints or litre)