Smoker Fuel from Corn Products Danger WARNING - fact or fiction?

[GDRankin]

What's in your smoker?
According to a training module from ucanr.edu, DO NOT USE CORN PRODUCTS in your smoker. Dried corn products (cobs, husks, leaves) will produce smoke that will kill bees. I'm not sure why I have not heard this before, but you would think this info would be posted where all newbees can find it easily. (maybe include notes in the box the smokers are shipped in even?)

I put the above message in a post on the Beemaster Facebook page and got a lot of response about what all things people use for smoker fuel, but not many seemed to be aware of any dangers of corn products (cobs, husks & leaves) causing any problems.

I did a search on here for "corn fuel" and found one 2013 post with a few guys saying that's all they use and have never had a problem. I have to wonder why the folks at the UC Division of Agriculture and Natural Resources would have such a warning in their beekeeping training module if there were no issues.
So, please don't think I'm beating a dead horse here. In fact, since I'm not in the corn belt, I don't even personally have a horse in this race, so to speak (I use mostly pine for my fuel).
My concern is for others in the biz that may not be aware of this danger - if there is such a danger - and would like to get others ideas and basically just pass along what I've read to spread awareness.

[Wombat2]

Don't know about corn products as we don't have that product in large quantities - for years I used pine needles like a lot of folk but on a course I did last year the instructors club had done some experiments with an Infra red imager and found pine needles to to be emitting red hot cinders - along with wood shavings and other "hard" material - enough to burn bees. They found the "coolest" and with no cinders was dried grass with a mixture or long and short particles.

[amun-ra]

I use sugar cane mulch from bunnings its certified organic ok and if you put some gree grass in on the top stops hot embers from getting the bees  works for me

[Richard M]

Don't know about corn products as we don't have that product in large quantities - for years I used pine needles like a lot of folk but on a course I did last year the instructors club had done some experiments with an Infra red imager and found pine needles to to be emitting red hot cinders - along with wood shavings and other "hard" material - enough to burn bees. They found the "coolest" and with no cinders was dried grass with a mixture or long and short particles.

I still use pine needles - we have lots of Radiata pine (AKA Monterey Pine) here, so I can get bagloads easy enough; I had to go back into a hive recently and my gloves were back in the car, so I gave my hands a good smoking first; I didn't find it at all uncomfortable. I think as long as there's lots of white smoke, meaning it's pretty cool, then it's ok - long slow draws and pumps on the bellows seems to do the trick, if anything, it feels moist, like steam. Short fast and furious puffing seems to give a wispier grey smoke that's a lot hotter, so I avoid doing that.

[Michael Bush]

I've often picked up corn husks and use them in the smoker.  With neonics I suppose it's a bigger issue, but before neonics I certainly saw no difference.

[BeeMaster2]

When you use pine needles, you want to get it burning at the bottom and then start packing it in and keep packing it so that the material is real tight. this does 2 things, the material makes like a solid coal and burns a long time and the material above it filters the ash out of the smoke and cools it.
When packed properly a pine filled smoker should be able to sit unattended for at least 4-5 hours. Often times they look like they have gone out but will quickly provide full cool smoke when puffed. If it feels light after a couple of hours, add more fuel.
Jim

[Richard M]

When you use pine needles, you want to get it burning at the bottom and then start packing it in and keep packing it so that the material is real tight. this does 2 things, the material makes like a solid coal and burns a long time and the material above it filters the ash out of the smoke and cools it.
When packed properly a pine filled smoker should be able to sit unattended for at least 4-5 hours. Often times they look like they have gone out but will quickly provide full cool smoke when puffed. If it feels light after a couple of hours, add more fuel.
Jim

I've recently started using a propane blow torch to light my smoker, just lay a loose handful of needles and twigs in the bottom to begin with and give them a good blast of flame so that they're red-hot incandescent (instant embers) and the smoker's hot too, before packing more in on top. Works every time.

[Michael Bush]

>I've recently started using a propane blow torch to light my smoker

The self igniting ones are the best... just pull the trigger and it's lit...

[thewhiterhino]

This is my theory as to why corn has been singled out.
It is my understanding that most corn is now GMO and creates its own BT Toxin to kill the bugs that feed off it. If this is the case and you got some BT corn I can see why the smoket could kill the bees.
Ross

[Michael Bush]

>It is my understanding that most corn is now GMO and creates its own BT Toxin

Yes, but Bt toxin has no effect on bees...

[thewhiterhino]

>It is my understanding that most corn is now GMO and creates its own BT Toxin

Yes, but Bt toxin has no effect on bees...

I figure that the pollen collected would not have any BT Toxin, but does any one know if the toxin in the leaves is harmless to bees when burned and released in the form of smoke?

[Michael Bush]

If anything in the corn is dangerous it would be the neonics.

[D Coates]

Just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's true.  Personally I've used corn cobs that I pulled from the 300+ acre field I'm only separated via a one lane road from.  I'm certain they were GMO as the farmer doesn't spray anything on the corn other than round up.  No obvious impacts on my bees.  I'd bet it's a cautionary belief that has no footing in actual scientific findings.

[thewhiterhino]

Just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's true. 

Amen to that!

[Michael Bush]

>Just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's true.

But they didn't just write it down... it was in the internet, so it HAS to be true... they wouldn't be allowed to put it there otherwise would they?  Interesting that it is from the University...

[thewhiterhino]

But they didn't just write it down... it was in the internet, so it HAS to be true...

The Internet, the greatest brainwashing tool invented since the introduction of television in the 50's...
Oh it has to be true,,,, doesn't it?

[Michael Bush]

I just watched the movie "Simon" with my grandson, who liked it a lot.  One of my favorite scenes is where Simon (played by Alan Arkin) is talking to the "TV Cult" people and tells them something that he has said (that was broadcast) and they all agree and say ""Yes. We have seen you on the sacred box, the sacred box with the pictures........"  and Simon says, "You mean the TV" and they say "we do not speak its name..." and Simon says "but surely don't believe (and he says something that was outrageously false on TV)" and they say "of course.  It was on the sacred box" and he says several other things in similar manner and they all agree it has to be true because it was on the "sacred box".

[D Coates]

All people have biases.  Universities are made of people, many who carry particularly strong biases.  Combine the two an it's a perfect location to appear scholarly and neutral while pushing a bias (whether intentionally or unintentionally).  Those biases can become accepted "fact" if no one questions it.  The lack of supporting documentation for this claim combined with my personal experiences that indicate otherwise leaves this claim as completely fictional.

[GDRankin]

All people have biases.  Universities are made of people, many who carry particularly strong biases.  Combine the two an it's a perfect location to appear scholarly and neutral while pushing a bias (whether intentionally or unintentionally).  Those biases can become accepted "fact" if no one questions it.  The lack of supporting documentation for this claim combined with my personal experiences that indicate otherwise leaves this claim as completely fictional.

I tend to agree and wondered about this myself. Which is part of the reason for me starting this thread. In fact, I wrote to said university, the same day I posted this, asking what was the basis of and any supporting documentation for this claim.
As you may have guessed, I have not received a reply as of yet.
So . . . there ya go.

The thing that gets me is that this information is used in a beekeeping training module. (Course: Honey Bees and Colony Strength Evaluation http://class.ucanr.edu/course/view.php?id=8)
Obviously someone had to approve the materials contained in the module and sign off on them before they were made available.

Since I don't personally have easy access to corn products, I don't have any concerns about using them personally. But in the event there is an issue, I'd think others in this community would like to know, so I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion.

The only thing I would remind folks that use corn and possibility caution about is the claim made in the training module, is that "the problem corn products present for bees could take several hours or even days to kill bees".
Take that for what it's worth I suppose.

As mentioned, it's on the internet, so it must be so ... lol

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[don2]

I have tried a lot of things for smoker fuel. When my 100% cotton blue jeans are no longer good for me. recycled to the smoker. They do get a washing with little soap and a double rense. d2