Extinction of the Bees

Started by chux, September 03, 2015, 10:48:07 AM

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chux

How many times have you heard, or said, something along these lines; "The bees have been around for millions of years. If we just let them be, they will adapt and find a way to survive with mites." I have heard very smart and well educated lecturers, bloggers, and well-meaning beeks say this.

Now, I reject the notion that bees have been around for millions of years. But let's say this were true for a moment...According to biologists who should know, species go extinct all the time on this planet. Supposedly, even before man was on earth, there were 5 mass-extinction level events, as well as other natural reasons for extinction of individual species. These scientist now claim that man causes most of the issues today which bring about species extinction.

In the debate over treatment, or non-treatment for varroa, I believe we need to keep in mind that there is a very real possibility that bees could go extinct due to varroa. Or, they could go extinct due to human's throwing poisons and prescriptions in the box. I'm just pointing out that we don't really have the promise that the bees can be saved by us, whether we treat or not. If all bee keepers stopped using chemical treatments tomorrow, we are not guaranteed that the bees will "find a way." They could disappear. Or they could survive.

Personally, I believe we have been given stewardship of a wonderful creation, in these bees. They were designed to be a critical part of this creation, and they are a delight to us. I also believe they will survive with our help in some instances, and in spite of our "help" in other instances.

All this to say, I think it is awesome that we have a growing number of beeks who are going treatment free. This gives the bee a chance to find a way to coexist with the mites. I also think it is awesome that so many beeks are using various forms of treatments to combat Varroa. This is an insurance policy in case the bees can't find a way to coexist in time. I like diversity in attacking the problem.   

BeeMaster2

Chux,
I hear what you are saying but I really think we are causing more problems throwing all kinds of chemicals and antibiotics at the bees than we are helping. Years ago I had heard that when India became infested, as a group the Indian Beekeepers decided as a group that since they could not afford the chemicals that they would do nothing. It took 2 years, of close to total losses, but the bees bounced back.
From some reports from here in the US, only about 45% of our beekeepers are now treating for mites.
If you want to see how long our bees have been around, Search "History of bees" There are bees similar to our bees in amber that are about 140 million years old.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

BeeMaster2

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Michael Bush

>In the debate over treatment, or non-treatment for varroa, I believe we need to keep in mind that there is a very real possibility that bees could go extinct due to varroa.

But there are thousands of us keeping them without treating them for Varroa.  There are feral hives, which according to Tom Seeley's research are at the same density they were in the 1970s which are also surviving without being treated for Varroa.  Varroa is not making untreated bees extinct.   There may be a very real possibility that SOMETHING may come along and make them extinct, but that something is definitely not Varroa.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

chux

MB, I don't think we can say that there is no scenario by which Varroa could vector disease which does wipe out the honey bee. It is entirely possible in the future, even if we do not see it happening today. New strains of disease will appear. The mite will carry it. One could indeed prove to be a total devastator with no answer. I do not believe this will happen, but it could happen. I know you are aware, though some reading this may not know, the Varroa does not typically kill the bee. It may shorten the life of a bee, and if enough mites get on an individual, they will kill it. The real issue is the vectoring of disease. The Varroa will carry disease from colony to colony and bee to bee. There is no single disease being vectored right now that will wipe out all colonies. That could surely change.

Thinking about the history of the honey bee...Thanks for the link, sawdstmakr. I recently listened to a lecture given by a respected university professor. He was speaking on the stages of evolution which produced the super-organism of the colony we have today. I enjoyed his insightful presentation. The problem I had was his blind faith. In the presentation, he made huge leaps of assumption as to how the ancestor to the honey bee evolved. His explanation of the way an individual within the colony decided to become the single laying female, and how that change took place within the species, was lacking even though entertaining. All through the discussion, there were statements about what happened, when he has no way of knowing that is indeed what happened. 

It takes a great deal of faith to believe that the honey bee evolved over millions of years. There are huge gaps in the theories. It makes a lot more sense to me, and takes a lot less faith, to believe that the bees were created by God. They have been here since the beginning. They have changed some over time, but the bees have always been here. And we've been harvesting honey and enjoying the fruit of their labor just as long.

This gets back to the stewardship issue. We should do our best to care for the bees. If we use both approaches in this world, I believe that diversity of care and treatment will give us a greater chance at the continued existence of the honey bee. If everybody is doing the same thing, there is more chance of a single issue reaping devastation. With diversity, you lower risk.

   

Michael Bush

> I don't think we can say that there is no scenario by which Varroa could vector disease which does wipe out the honey bee.

All the diseases that Varroa have vectored existed before Varroa.  Is there a disease that hasn't made it here that Varroa could vector?  Perhaps.  But it wouldn't be the Varroa killing them, it would be the new disease.

Wild animals have a vigor that domestic animals never have.  The worst thing to happen to bees and the worst thing to continue to happen to bees is our breeding them to our ends.  So far we have bred them to make less propolis (which we now know makes them susceptible to AFB, EFB, Chalkbrood and even Varroa since the propolis was protecting them), we have bred them to have perfect brood patterns, which resulted in unhygienic bees, we bred them to make less drones and swarm less, which gave the AHB the reproductive advantage.  In my opinion every thing we have bred for had been bad for the bees except maybe gentleness and productivity and those are still up for discussion.  Domesticity is not a survival advantage.

"...the quote from Henry David Thoreau:  ?In Wildness is the Preservation of the World?.  Truer words were never spoken...what we really need now is to bring wildness back to the farms, suburbs, and cities where we spend most of our time, and to cultivate more Wildness in all of these places... So far, the only bees that have been able to co-exist with Varroa here without treatments, and pass on that ability for many generations, came from more ?primitive? places where agriculture is not as ?advanced? as ours:  far eastern Russia and Africa (via South America).  Other lines of bees have been selected based on labor-intensive monitoring of one or a few traits, which resulted in a few colonies with good mite-fighting ability, but so far it has not been possible to propagate them into a large and stable population of colonies that don?t require treatments.

"The important point, however, is not that we should always rush off to a primitive place to get our breeding stock, though that may be helpful.  The vital thing is to cultivate wildness at home where we live; to acknowledge, enjoy and utilize the mystery and unknowable power of Nature, as well as the few things we think we know about Her.  We need to breed bees along these lines in order to create diverse regional populations that are stable, resilient, and easy to care for?as the basis for future pollination when energy is scarce, and crops and livestock (including bees) must all live in the same place year-round.  The way to accomplish this is through Horizontal breeding schemes..."--Kirk Webster, What?s Missing From The Current Discussion And Work Related To Bees That?s Preventing Us From Making Good Progress?
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

tjc1

Interesting observations from Mr. Weber - thanks for sharing that.

OldMech

If we let them be, they will first, swarm more often, and this alone will insure their genetics are out and about...  This falls into the line of a question I asked of Dr. Seeley;

   Dear Scott,

I?m honored by your interest.   And the answer to your question is yes, I have strong evidence that colonies that live in small hives/nest cavities and so swarm at least annually are able to survive surprisingly well without mite treatments, despite being infested with Varroa, as are all the colonies in the Arnot Forest.

Your question is a spur to me to get that study written up and published.  Basically, it involved comparing the dynamics of mite and bee populations of colonies living in either a 1-deep hive body hive or in 4-deep hive body hives. 

My best,

Tom

Thomas D. Seeley
Horace White Professor in Biology
Department of Neurobiology and Behavior
Cornell University
Ithaca, New York 14853, USA

   It was/is my belief that those hives that did swarm more often may not LIVE longer, but the swarms they sent out might b e granted an extension..... If each hive ONLY swarmed one time a year, and that swarm managed to survive 2 years, it would quickly add up...  unfortunately, (Fortunately?) every swarm that heads off into the wild blue yonder doesnt make it, but it does remain that swarming is a good means of giving the mother hive a brood break, and the swarm hive will also have a break while it builds new comb..  So I at least THINK, that the bees will become very swarmy, while they work on their own natural resistances..  No, I do not believe that the bees will outright vanish from the face of the earth, SO LONG as we continue to work at and make advancements in stopping poisoning them outright.
   But I do wholeheartedly agree that they ARE under our care when we stuff them into a box, and place them where we want them.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

little john

Quote from: chux on September 03, 2015, 10:48:07 AM
Now, I reject the notion that bees have been around for millions of years.

That's quite an assertion - then what would you consider their history to have been ?

QuotePersonally, I believe we have been given stewardship of a wonderful creation, in these bees.

I have real difficulty with this statement. Who exactly is 'we' ? If you lived in Europe, Asia or Africa, then I might agree with you - but honey bees are not native to the Americas or Canada.

If you really want to set nature back on an even keel again, then you'd need to 'clear the slate' and eradicate every single honey bee from your continent - for the honey bee has evolved to live in countries other than your own. But somehow I can't see that happening - can you ?

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

iddee

"Who exactly is 'we' ?"

LJ, WE are he people of Earth. We be God's children. Not just one or two particular groups. We means mankind, the world over.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

chux

Yep, iddee. "We" is everybody. Creation includes all aspects of our world where we can excerpt some type of control or influence. Mankind has a responsibility to help where we can enhance, help where we can help, not mess up where we can not mess up, and enjoy where we can enjoy. This stewardship point of view understands that the world is here for us to enjoy and take care of. So we can enjoy the fruit of the labor of honey bees (enjoying their company, pollination, honey, wax, propolis...), but we also have a responsibility to take steps that help encourage their survival.

MB, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and those quotes. I agree that selective breeding has weakened the stock in many ways. We have done this in the pursuit of enjoying the bee. We are shaping her for our wishes. I believe there is a place for this, but at some point you go too far. We need to pick our heads up and look at the big picture. I love the idea of bringing wildness back to our farms. We have lost much biodiversity by modern agricultural practices. There must be a practical middle-ground.

OldMech, swarming...yes. Thanks for sharing. Your post encourages me as I plan for a chemical-free yard next year. I plan to use false-swarming as my treatment for Varroa. If I can get good results for a few years, I will stop using chems in all hives.