Growing a colony with foundationless frames

[Wombat2]

Yeah. .. well said. .. like I said it's not like training a dog. ................- more like herding cats

[chux]

>>>>>After 3-5 years you will appreciate the wisdom of these words.  Until then, continue to direct the bees to carry out your instructions 

Well, I'm not trying to make them follow my instructions. I'm trying to give them what I think they want and would prefer. A longer continuous comb in the brood chamber. I was just trying to figure out the best way to help them get where they want to go. I could level the same charge against most beekeepers that you just leveled at me. In nature, the majority of colonies I have seen prefer long continuous comb with varied cell sizes in strange places. We make the bees do things our way when we give them foundation (which I don't do). We make them do things our way when we give them nothing but medium boxes and frames to work with, as do some beekeepers I greatly respect on this forum. We make them do things our way when we give them deeps for brood chamber, as I do.

I know you guys mean well, but your way isn't the only way, just as mine isn't. We learn from one another. I appreciate your wisdom from experience. Keep bringing it. I think the best beekeeping method will be one that tries to encourage and help the bees do things their way. 

[OldMech]

using mediums or deeps, or long hives, or warre hives etc isnt making the bees do anything, any more than when they choose to build in a six inch rafter space, or a ten inch gas tank. We "offer" a happy medium that will be convenient for us AND for them. They really dont care if you use mediums or deeps. In fact I know an elderly fellow that uses 8 frame shallows so that he can continue to keep bees despite a bad back and encroaching age, and his bees do fine... And your right, there are more "ways" than you can shake a stick at. The bottom line is, do you have live bees in the spring? If you answer yes, then your doing something right, no matter what "way" you use! To me, part of the fun in in seeing and reading about how everyone else keeps their bees, and learning what I can from them......

   130 years ago, CC Miller published 50 years among the bees, and in his Intro, he wrote something that is timeless when it comes to beekeepers;

  One morning, five or six of us, who had occupied the same bed-room the previous night during the North American Convention at Cincinnati, in 1882, were dressing, preperatory to another days work. Among the rest were Bingham, of smoker fame, and Vandervort, the foundation mill man. I think it was Prof. Cook who was chaffing these inventors, saying something to the effect that they were always at work studying how to get up something different from anybody else, and, if they needed an implement, would spend a dollar and a days time to get up one "of their own make" rather than pay 25 cents for a better one ready-made. Vandervort, who sat contemplatively rubbing his shins dryly replied: "But they take a world of comfort from it." I think all bee-keepers are possessed of more or less of the same spirit. Their own inventions and plans seem the best to them, and in many cases they are right, to the extent that two of them, having almost opposite plans, would be losers to exchange plans.
   In visiting and talking with other bee-keepers I am generally Prejudiced enough to think my plans are, on the whole, better than theirs and yet I am always very much interested to know just how they manage, especially as to the little details of common operations, and occasionally I find something so manifestly better than my own way, that I am compelled to throw aside my Prejudice and adopt their better way.

//end

   Has anything really changed?

[chux]

oldmech, that is a great excerpt. Thanks so much for sharing. Even as things change, so much does stay the same. My last post was in response to a couple of statements which I interpreted as accusations that I am trying to make the bees do what I want them to do. My point was that we all do this to some extent, no matter what type of beekeeping we are doing. If you use all medium, you are making the bees draw medium frame comb. You take away the option to build whatever they want by limiting the amount of open space without hindrance. This isn't a bad thing. Anymore than my initial question about trying to give them more room for a brood chamber with a deep. I'm trying to figure out how to help them do what they want to do, but a couple of replies seemed to be saying that I am trying to force the bees to do something unnatural. I guess I was just venting. Been a frustrating morning. Sorry if I came off in a negative way, folks.

[Old Blue]

Hi Chux

I didn't mean for my post to come across as an accusation and should have done a better job of quoting MB.  Please accept my apologies.

Regarding brood nest expansion, I too have had great success in encouraging brood nest expansion and the drawing of comb by putting empty frames in the middle of the brood nest.  I have gotten the impression that they will draw much more comb and do it more quickly if it's in the middle of the brood nest.  I think keeping the brood nest open like this is also a great way to prevent swarming. 

There's lots of good beekeepers here to learn from and I tip my hat to them cause between them and 5 or 6 years of my own misadventures that's how I've managed.

It sounds like your a good beek and I wish you the best.

Old Blue
Where the state is planning to tax, fine, regulate, fee, permit and destroy beekeeping as we know it, cause their just so darn sure someone might be having fun in an unregulated manner.  Where else but..............................
Kali-bone-ya

[chux]

Old Blue, I was a little too touchy the other day. Thanks for your replies. This is indeed a great and encouraging place for us to learn from one another.
The lazy me is dreading the time and energy it will take to go to multiple yards and dig into the middle of at least 30 hives every couple of weeks. Really thinking about just leaving that medium and deep at the bottom, and adding empty frames in the center of the medium.