Advice please

folieadeux · February 03, 2016, 10:09:36 PM

We're new beekeepers & have joined the forum to ask advice:
How do we permanently remove the bottom brood box from our hive, loosing as little brood as possible?
The background is this:
A few months ago I found a swarm of bees, put them in a cardboard box & brought them home. Never having had bees, we were puzzled about what to do next. DH knew of an old beekeeper locally so we went out to see him. He sold us an old 8 frame box with top & bottom boards, & 8 stickies.
I was very much against buying second hand equipment (I'm hyper-vigilant about bio-security generally) but DH insisted it was a good idea given we had a big cardboard box full of bees in the garage, no-where to put them, & it was getting dark. So I shut up & we took the gear home & shook the bees in. The bees did very well & we put the third deep box (3 including the original box we bought from the old beek) on top a few weeks ago.
The problem is I am still having nightmares about exactly what was in those old stickies, as well as the fact that 2 or 3 of them had plastic foundation (we have a totally organic property) & would dearly love to get rid of the original box & frames.
To be taken into consideration are a few factors:
The first is that these bees are hot hot hot, & I am very much in favour of not messing with them any more than I have to. While we do have all-in-one bee suits with zip veil thingies, it is still disconcerting for complete newbies to be constantly bombarded by suicide bombers from the moment we set foot in the yard until 48 hours after we close the lid. These girls carry a grudge & no human or dog is safe after we've dared to disturb their domain!
The second is that I'm pretty fond of these bees in spite of their very defensive temperament, & I absolutely don't wish to risk losing the hive or the original queen.
Third is that I strongly identify with all I've read regarding "natural" beekeeping so far, & I would prefer to disturb the bees environment as little as possible.
So - how do I make sure all the brood in the bottom box grows into new little bees, allow the bees to salvage any honey & pollen sorted in the frames, & then get rid of the box & frames?
I'm not interested in trying to find the Queen - mostly because I read that most Queens are killed when the beeks try & find them, but also because I want to have this hive open as briefly as possible, & because I think my chances of identifying the Queen even if I was looking right at her are not so great :/
We've bought 2 Queen excluders ... we just can't figure out where to put them :/ Help please :)

PhilK · February 03, 2016, 10:45:43 PM

I'm fairly new to this whole thing as well, and I'm pretty sure someone else will chime in with better advice for you, but just a couple of thoughts from me.

Quote from: folieadeux on February 03, 2016, 10:09:36 PM
The first is that these bees are hot hot hot, & I am very much in favour of not messing with them any more than I have to. While we do have all-in-one bee suits with zip veil thingies, it is still disconcerting for complete newbies to be constantly bombarded by suicide bombers from the moment we set foot in the yard until 48 hours after we close the lid. These girls carry a grudge & no human or dog is safe after we've dared to disturb their domain!

Sounds like you should re-queen. It's in nobody's best interests to have bees that aggressive in my opinion. You are more likely to learn more and work the bees better without aggressive bees.

QuoteSo - how do I make sure all the brood in the bottom box grows into new little bees, allow the bees to salvage any honey & pollen sorted in the frames, & then get rid of the box & frames?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but you can rotate full frames of capped brood upwards in the hive (into the honey super area) and wait for them to hatch out. When all the bees have hatched out the bees will clean the frames and use them as honey storage. You can then extract honey and get rid of the frames if you don't want them

QuoteI'm not interested in trying to find the Queen - mostly because I read that most Queens are killed when the beeks try & find them, but also because I want to have this hive open as briefly as possible, & because I think my chances of identifying the Queen even if I was looking right at her are not so great :/

You don't need to find the queen (unless you're going to pinch her and replace her which is what I would do). If you see eggs in the bottom of the cells it means she has laid in the last 0-3 days and she is present. I don't think you risk killing her if you are careful in your inspections, but I agree she can be very hard to find! I haven't found her that many times even when I have been looking.

QuoteWe've bought 2 Queen excluders ... we just can't figure out where to put them :/ Help please :)

I'm beginning to see there is a large debate about queen excluders! It might be useful in your case if you want to seperate 'brood' area (bottom box you want to get rid of) and 'super' area (other boxes with honey being stored). You just need to make sure you put it in the right spot to ensure the queen is below it not above it. If the queen is in the bottom box with the frames you don't want, I would put the QE on top of that box. Keep rotating frames of capped brood above the QE as needed and then you can cycle them out as mentioned above.

Hopefully someone else will reply with some more info!

BeeMaster2 · February 03, 2016, 10:59:24 PM

Add a new box with new foundation below the brood box. The bees will then build down and the queen will lay in this box.
More than likely, as new Beekeepers, with thick heavy gloves on, you are crushing bees because you cannot feel them through the the gloves. When you hurt or kill a bee, they release an alarm pheromones that cause the bees around them to attack the intruder. Your gloves are being stung and marked. The next time you place your gloved hand in the hive more bees react and the more they attack.
To break this cycle, get a pair of nylon gloves. You have a better chance of feeling the bees before you hurt them. Smoke your gloves up real well. Bee gentle with the frames, pull out an end frame first, has the least number of bees, then leave it out of the hive while go through the rest of the hive. When done add the original frame back in. Bee very careful when you are adding a super. Use smoke to clear the edge. If you can keep from hurting the bees, I think you will see a big difference. It takes 3 weeks for the field bees to die off and for them to calm down.
Jim

iddee · February 03, 2016, 11:13:22 PM

You are wasting time and money replacing the used equipment. If it was diseased, which is highly unlikely, all three boxes are now diseased. If it wasn't, then all is well. Replacing it now is like shutting the barn door after the horse got out. Totally useless.

As for the mean bees, if they are attacking before you get to the hive, requeen. It isn't fair to your neighbors not to.
If they only attack during and after you work them, do as sawdstmakr said.

folieadeux · February 03, 2016, 11:19:43 PM

Thank you for both replies :) I will go back & re-read it all & try & get it sorted in my mind :)

PhilK:I don't want to re-queen ... I'm very keen on doing a bit of experimenting with more "natural"/feral strains of bees as opposed to the "engineered"/domesticated strains :) (After having an unrecognisable face for a week I do think I'll move them a bit further away from the house though.) :)

Jim: Nope - it's not that we're not careful ... in fact, we're super careful. We've managed to only squash a couple of bees ever. I wash all the gear, including the gloves, every time we use it.
We use sugar/water spray while we're doing stuff with them, but we always have the smoker going near by in case things get out of hand. We've used the smoker a few times to get bees off the edges when the sugar/water approach wasn't working, & a couple of times we've just smoked the heck out of each other when the bombardment got too intense. If we smell that particular smell that floats up when one of them has stung, we puff a bit of smoke around then as well. Sadly, it doesn't deter them - they're hard core! :(
On the bright side - we also have a nice gentle hive :) We bought a package of bees from a beekeeping supplies shop a week after I found the swarm. We had driven in to Sydney to buy a new hive box & frames for the swarm bees, & the shop had just taken delivery of a few pallets of package bees. Someone hadn't turned up to collect their package, so they sold them to us :) The 2 hives are like chalk & cheese ... I sure can see why people recommend gentle bees for beginners!

folieadeux · February 03, 2016, 11:32:58 PM

Hi iddee :)

Yeah I know ... about it being useless to replace the equipment now if there is disease ... but even just the plastic frames in there eek me out ... I'm a bit weird like :/
I'm thinking that given they're booming & there are no signs of disease in the top 2 boxes that we placed on there (well nothing that we can identify anyway - but we are brand spanking new at this :/ ) it probably means all is well? But I really want to get it off there & have a darn good look in it before re-using it at the very least. No logical explanation ... just been smacked with bio-security issues (with 4 legged livestock) in the past & am a bit over cautious I guess.
We're on 400 acres here & when we move back home (we're just working on this place) we will be in the middle of a huge area of National Park, so no neighbours, just us & the dogs.
Which brings me back to the biosecurity thing. I need to be absolutely certain I don't take home any diseases when we move back. There are no domestic european bees back where we live (there are a few feral hives) & I sure as heck don't want to be the person who ruined beekeeping for myself or anyone else who might like to try it in that area!

iddee · February 03, 2016, 11:37:26 PM

Keep one more fact in mind. There are many times more bees belonging to new beeks die from too much care than too little care.

New beeks have a very bad habit of loving their bees to DEATH!

folieadeux · February 03, 2016, 11:45:00 PM

Yep ... I believe that would be true. And that is why I'm using a "hands off" approach. If you guys think that a low intervention approach should include leaving the bottom box on there, well I'll take that into consideration. (The plastic frames are still giving me the here-geebies though :) )

iddee · February 03, 2016, 11:54:21 PM

Put a plastic frame against each wall of the box. Wait more than 21 days and remove them. Add wood and wax to the second position and place two more against the walls. She seldom, if ever, lays in the two outside frames.

folieadeux · February 04, 2016, 12:21:20 AM

"Put a plastic frame against each wall of the box. Wait more than 21 days and remove them. Add wood and wax to the second position and place two more against the walls. She seldom, if ever, lays in the two outside frames."

Awesome!
I can do that :)
Thank you for your help :)

chux · February 04, 2016, 09:29:18 AM

I would leave the old equipment in use, but if you really want to get rid of it, this is what I would do. Leave the old equipment in place on the bottom until next spring. By the end of your winter, the bees will probably have moved out of the old box and up into the higher boxes/box. Simply remove the old equipment from the bottom before the queen has a chance to move back down into it in early spring. If there are any stores left in the frames of the bottom box when you remove it, you can leave those frames out in the yard and the bees will rob them clean.

When I use gloves, I usually use thin rubber dishwashing gloves. One pair will last me for a few weeks if I am careful with them. They only cost about a dollar per pair.

Use smoke. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but it sounds like you have the smoker lit and on standby off to the side, in case you need it. You need it before you ever open the hive. Smoke your gloves, hands, and clothing. This may mask any residual smells the bees wouldn't like. A gentle puff at the entrance to the hive. A gentle puff under the cover before it is removed. A gentle puff every time you start seeing those bees eye-balling you from between the frames, getting ready to attack. With time, you start to get a feel for when the girls are needing a little smoke. Depending on the time of season, I hardly use any smoke with most of my hives. I don't want to give them any more than they need to stay calm. I know we don't want to smoke because we believe it disrupts the colony. But...what does the alarm pheromone do to the colony? When that alarm starts going off, there is a huge disruption in colony operation. I believe a smoke strategically used is the way to go.

And don't bee afraid to get into the hive. You don't have to do a full inspection. It may just be a peek at one or two frames in the top box. Get in there and look at what is going on. Why? To get used to going into the hive. To get the bees used to you going into the hive. To see what they are doing and make sure of their progress. To diagnose a possible problem before it gets out of hand. To have fun with the girls. Just don't go too deep into the hive. And be quick.

Or...Just put the box in the back yard and let them do their thing. Never open them for fear of disturbing them. Guess about when they might need another box, and quickly add it. I guess it depends on why you have bees in the first place. I want to enjoy being with them and learning what they do and how they do it. When I started three years ago, I was in the hive at least once every ten days. The girls did fine with that, and I learned a ton. Now, I have too many hives to get in each one that often. I still try to get into the hives in my home yard once every couple of weeks. Hives in other yards don't get opened as often. The hives that don't get opened as often don't seem to be any stronger than my home yard hives. I'm sure research has probably shone otherwise, but my personal experience has been that a brief, careful inspection doesn't cause a hive to suffer.

Michael Bush · February 04, 2016, 09:55:45 AM

>How do we permanently remove the bottom brood box from our hive, loosing as little brood as possible?

Unless you want them in some other size box, I wouldn't. If you DO want them in some other size box then I would use the excluder to get the brood to emerge in the brood box before removing it. Probably that would be while there is a nectar flow, which may be all the time depending on where in Australia you are...

>I was very much against buying second hand equipment (I'm hyper-vigilant about bio-security generally) but DH insisted it was a good idea given we had a big cardboard box full of bees in the garage, no-where to put them, & it was getting dark.

I would have bought the used boxes and put them in them. Otherwise the swarm would be wasting it's efforts building comb in a cardboard box...

>The problem is I am still having nightmares about exactly what was in those old stickies

If there was a problem it is too late now and it probably would have shown up by now.

> as well as the fact that 2 or 3 of them had plastic foundation (we have a totally organic property) & would dearly love to get rid of the original box & frames.

You can get rid of the plastic without getting rid of the box. But really, once it's coated in wax it's not going to hurt anything.

>The first is that these bees are hot hot hot, & I am very much in favour of not messing with them any more than I have to.

Requeen. Now. The sooner the better.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

>The second is that I'm pretty fond of these bees in spite of their very defensive temperament, & I absolutely don't wish to risk losing the hive or the original queen.

Why? Hot bees are no fun to have around and someone could get hurt.

>Third is that I strongly identify with all I've read regarding "natural" beekeeping so far, & I would prefer to disturb the bees environment as little as possible.

I would disturb them as much as necessary to get calm bees...

>So - how do I make sure all the brood in the bottom box grows into new little bees, allow the bees to salvage any honey & pollen sorted in the frames, & then get rid of the box & frames?

Queen excluder. Put the queen above it.

>I'm not interested in trying to find the Queen - mostly because I read that most Queens are killed when the beeks try & find them, but also because I want to have this hive open as briefly as possible, & because I think my chances of identifying the Queen even if I was looking right at her are not so great :/

You can't safely remove a box without finding the queen and you can't get all the brood out without getting her out of the brood nest.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenspotting.htm

>We've bought 2 Queen excluders ... we just can't figure out where to put them :/ Help please :)

If you use them (and I don't) put them between where the brood nest is and where you don't want brood...
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm#excluders

But the best use for them, if you really want to get the plastic foundation out, is to use them to keep the queen out until the brood has emerged.

folieadeux · February 05, 2016, 02:14:43 AM

Hi chux & thank you for your reply :)

"Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but it sounds like you have the smoker lit and on standby off to the side, in case you need it."
Yep -that's pretty much what we're doing - keeping it on stand-by in case things head too far south. So far we've found that with the hot hive using the smoke doesn't seem to make a difference anyway, & the gentle hive don't need smoke.

"I know we don't want to smoke because we believe it disrupts the colony. But...what does the alarm pheromone do to the colony? When that alarm starts going off, there is a huge disruption in colony operation."
Yes - the disruption bit - that's the reason we aren't getting into the hives any more than necessary & why we aren't keen on using smoke. And yes again - I can understand that the alarm pheromone must also be disruptive for them. As total newbies, we're still chewing on all of this, trying to figure out which way to go.

"When I started three years ago, I was in the hive at least once every ten days." .... "Now, I have too many hives to get in each one that often."
:) :) :)
We found ourselves pretty bummed that we went to the trouble of putting on long johns, zipping ourselves into the bee-suits, lighting the smoker etc, only to have to take it all off again & wash everything after just putting on a new box. We wished we had several more boxes of bees so there were more jobs to do while we had the gear on. So we started looking around to buy some nucs or packages, with no luck. Then yesterday, as the result of joining this forum, we found a bloke who is willing to do up a few nucs for us :)
So while I don't reckon I will ever be in favour of too-frequent opening of the boxes, at least with more boxes to observe & interact with we can get more experience without having to worry we're excessively disrupting the microbial ecosystem :)

folieadeux · February 05, 2016, 03:06:12 AM

Hi Michael & thank you for responding :)

I just saw that you were here in Australia only a few weeks ago! How I wish I'd known that in time to attend one of your talks! :(

"You can get rid of the plastic without getting rid of the box. But really, once it's coated in wax it's not going to hurt anything."

I very much want to do a totally organic set-up, or as close to it as I can get. And that means avoiding plastic as much as possible.

"Why? Hot bees are no fun to have around and someone could get hurt."

I'm working on the hope that defensive bees will be more vigilant with SHB & wax moth, & I have a gut feeling they may be more disease resistant & possibly even more productive?

"But the best use for them, if you really want to get the plastic foundation out, is to use them to keep the queen out until the brood has emerged."
This. I'd like to do this.

But then I have this problem:
"You can't safely remove a box without finding the queen and you can't get all the brood out without getting her out of the brood nest."

I'm not very confident of being able to identify the Queen in amongst a whole bunch of bees anyway, (I'm reading the link you provided thank you) & I'm even less confident of finding her while being bombarded by lots of angry, determined, energetic bees :( I don't know what I'm afraid of ... I mean they can't get into the bee suits (I will make sure of that by taping up the legs & arms, wearing long johns underneath etc) & no one else is going to get hurt because we're on 400 acres & we lock the dogs in the house & shut the house up tight before we begin. Maybe I'm afraid they'll get so pi$$ed that they'll swarm or something?

I was thinking we could take the bottom box off, put a top & bottom on it without finding the queen, & leave it beside the top 2 boxes. Then, if upon checking a few days later there are no new eggs in the single bottom box, we could put a Queen excluder under it & put it back on the top of the hive. (This way we are only doing one "manoeuvre" at a time, & hopefully minimizing the opportunity for anything too wild to happen.) But I don't know enough about this stuff to know how this will work out ... will the brood hatch out & will the bees remove any honey & pollen & re-store them lower down? Or will they just start using the combs to store new nectar? I don't think I should reuse any of the old combs for honey ... they were dark looking when we got them & I think they'd be best removed altogether wouldn't they?

GSF · February 05, 2016, 06:27:59 AM

ditto what Michael said, One of the pleasures of having bees is watching them. A hot hive won't let you hang around too close.

little john · February 05, 2016, 07:22:34 AM

Quote from: folieadeux on February 05, 2016, 03:06:12 AM

"Why? Hot bees are no fun to have around and someone could get hurt."

I'm working on the hope that defensive bees will be more vigilant with SHB & wax moth, & I have a gut feeling they may be more disease resistant & possibly even more productive?

Defensive is good, but over-defensive is a paint in the butt. With really hot bees, you won't be able to venture within a hundred metres of the hives for 2 or 3 days after an inspection, for fear of being stung - without warning or provocation. I've been there, and it ain't funny.

On 400 acres you could always distance the hives away from your house, of course, but placing them just a short distance away is very handy, especially if you get into queen-rearing etc, when frequent inspections are needed.

With regard to being organic - the bees will forage for 2 or 3 miles in all directions, so what honey materialises also depends on what your neighbours are doing. And - if your neighbours keep bees (which is worth checking), they won't thank you for having hot bees, as whatever you keep will affect their genetics - and vice versa. It's the same story with treating for varroa, and other pests. Beekeeping is far more of a community activity than many folks realise.

Best of luck
LJ

JackM · February 05, 2016, 09:07:38 AM

You have had mucho good advice from some of the best here. One point I don't see mentioned.

If you still have drones (am not aware of climate where you are at this point) and fresh eggs, you can kill the queen and the hive will requeen itself. I have done this with hot hives and it does calm them. My bees are all feral, I am all natural as you say. Aggressive bees will not make a difference in SHB etc., in my view.

There is nothing wrong with plastic foundation, though I don't use it. Bees keep their brood cells clean and polish them before new eggs. I have one frame that has been used by the bees for brood for 3+ years. They like it so I leave it.

As far as removing the old equipment. Work out frames as they have no brood in them and put in a blank frame closer to the center. Eventually the frames will all get changed out. Remember propolis and honey are antibacterial, there is nothing wrong with all that icky looking stuff.

I also wonder if you are the reason the bees are so hot. Mine will get pissy for a couple days after me getting into the hives. But I can walk by the hives and not get stung, maybe an occasional bump.

I am by no means an expert, but I did not see these points mentioned as yet.

iddee · February 05, 2016, 10:01:10 AM

"""I was thinking we could take the bottom box off, put a top & bottom on it without finding the queen, & leave it beside the top 2 boxes. Then, if upon checking a few days later there are no new eggs in the single bottom box, we could put a Queen excluder under it & put it back on the top of the hive."""

NO, NO. NO.
In 3 days they will forget each other and the queen will be killed, unless done carefully as a "combine".

Michael Bush · February 05, 2016, 02:39:54 PM

> I'm working on the hope that defensive bees will be more vigilant with SHB & wax moth, & I have a gut feeling they may be more disease resistant & possibly even more productive?

Some people believe that. I don't. I think mean bees are just mean bees. If they seem more productive it's probably because they are robbing your other bees. Disease resistance is not connected to aggression. Mite resistance is not connected to aggression. MAYBE (but I don't believe it) an aggressive hive might be more aggressive towards SHB. But putting them in the sun is a better solution. I do not tolerate mean bees. Life is too short. You should ENJOY your bees.

Lancej · February 05, 2016, 04:43:54 PM

I did a cut out of an aggressive hive a few weeks ago, I have no problem with moths or SHB, this hive had both. Replaced the queen a few days ago and waiting to see how things go. I want to enjoy my bees, not having them following me and attacking before I even get to the hive.