Laying Workers

[GSF]

I (hope) I helped a friend with a laying worker hive yesterday. We didn't shake the bees out but what I did do is add some capped worker brood with a swarm cell. My thinking is that the swarm cell will hatch and the laying workers will quit or die out. Since there's multiple pseudo queens and this one was still capped I figured it would work out. Any experience with something like this?

[BeeMaster2]

There is a good chance the worker bees will kill the new queen. She would have a much better chance if you had taken the hive a couple hundred feet away, shook every bee out of it and put the hive back in its original location
Jim

[little john]

I very much agree with Jim.  I once spent the best part of a season trying to solve this problem with one (unimportant, surplus) hive - which morphed into a trial of human beekeeper ego over bee behaviour.  I tried every trick I knew, over a period of several months.  But eventually I gave up and resorted to dumping the bees out, as Jim describes.

There are some interesting tips on MB's site: http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm , but when taking time, effort and resources into account, I reckon that dumping the bees out is the only really practicable solution to the laying worker problem.  Wish it were otherwise.

LJ

[PhilK]

No experience with this - can anybody explain why dumping the bees out works? Do those bees find their way back to the hive again?

[little john]

My understanding of the rationale is that forager bees - those that have been on an orientation flight - will simply fly back to the original hive location.  Laying workers aren't foragers, so will have to try and gain entry into whatever hives are within range, along with all the nurse bees.

Nurse bees will invariably be granted access by guards, as they pose no threat - but laying worker bees have developed partially functional ovaries and thus some queen pheromone.  As they smell like genuine queens to the guards, they are considered a threat to that colony, and will thus be denied entry.  That's my understanding of the process, rightly or wrongly ... 

All I do know for sure, is that it works.

LJ

[GSF]

Does a swarm cell emit a queen pheromone? My rational was since there were possibly multiple laying workers there would be multiple queen smells. With the addition of new capped brood (new smells) I was thinking the queen cell wouldn't necessarily stand out. What say you?

[little john]

The problem which exists with one or more laying workers, is that the bees are living under the delusion that all is well.

The laying worker thinks she's a queen - she 'must be',  as she's laying eggs.  The other bees in the hive also think that she's a queen, 'cause she smells right, and she's laying eggs the larva of which they'll willingly feed.

As all the bees in the hive reckon everything is hunky-dory, they'll reject any queen which is introduced - 'cause they don't see themselves as being queenless, and view any new queen as being an intruder.

Now a queen cell, capped or uncapped, would be eagerly received either by a queenless colony - or by a queen-right colony where the queen is beginning to fail (as her pheromone levels begin to drop).

But - our laying worker colony is quite happy with how things are, thank you very much - they don't want to be superceded - they don't want to swarm - they just want to maintain the status quo.  That's what makes them so bl##dy difficult to deal with - they don't want to change anything, 'cause they're blissfully unaware that anything's wrong.

It's a cruel trick of nature - as that colony would of course be destined to perish in the wild.

My memory isn't what it once was, but I seem to remember that it's brood pheromone (not queen pheromone) which inhibits the development of ovaries in worker bees - so the only way to restore normality (i.e. genuine queenlessness), is to saturate the hive with open brood - week after week - until the layer workers finally stop their mischief.

LJ

[BeeMaster2]

Does a swarm cell emit a queen pheromone? My rational was since there were possibly multiple laying workers there would be multiple queen smells. With the addition of new capped brood (new smells) I was thinking the queen cell wouldn't necessarily stand out. What say you?

The real question is does a queen larvae emit pheromones? Yes.
Last Sunday, I  added several frames of eggs open and capped brood to my observation hive. The first 3 days they were very noisy. As soon as they had a queen larvae being developed they quieted right down. Right now they are very quiet because they have several queen cells.
Jim

[Lancej]

I read a study on laying workers a while back, they painted the laying workers and introduced queens, in some hives there was more than one worker laying. Most hives killed the queens, some hives both worker and queen were laying at the same time. Going by the study different things were happening in different hives.

[chux]

The problem which exists with one or more laying workers, is that the bees are living under the delusion that all is well.

The laying worker thinks she's a queen - she 'must be',  as she's laying eggs.  The other bees in the hive also think that she's a queen, 'cause she smells right, and she's laying eggs the larva of which they'll willingly feed.

As all the bees in the hive reckon everything is hunky-dory, they'll reject any queen which is introduced - 'cause they don't see themselves as being queenless, and view any new queen as being an intruder.

Now a queen cell, capped or uncapped, would be eagerly received either by a queenless colony - or by a queen-right colony where the queen is beginning to fail (as her pheromone levels begin to drop).

But - our laying worker colony is quite happy with how things are, thank you very much - they don't want to be superceded - they don't want to swarm - they just want to maintain the status quo.  That's what makes them so bl##dy difficult to deal with - they don't want to change anything, 'cause they're blissfully unaware that anything's wrong.

It's a cruel trick of nature - as that colony would of course be destined to perish in the wild.

My memory isn't what it once was, but I seem to remember that it's brood pheromone (not queen pheromone) which inhibits the development of ovaries in worker bees - so the only way to restore normality (i.e. genuine queenlessness), is to saturate the hive with open brood - week after week - until the layer workers finally stop their mischief.

LJ

That is a wonderful way to put things in perspective, LJ. The colony is killing themselves, thinking all is well.  This could actually be a pretty good commentary on life with addiction. "I don't have a problem. Everything is fine." Meanwhile, the addict is destroying their life. Hmmm. Life-lessons with the bees.

[Michael Bush]

Capped brood will not help.  Open brood will.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

[PhilK]

Nurse bees will invariably be granted access by guards, as they pose no threat - but laying worker bees have developed partially functional ovaries and thus some queen pheromone.  As they smell like genuine queens to the guards, they are considered a threat to that colony, and will thus be denied entry.

How can there be guards if you've just shaken out all the bees? Or do the returning foragers take up guard duty? Or do the first lot of nurse bees do that?

If it works it works though!

[little john]

Nurse bees will invariably be granted access by guards, as they pose no threat - but laying worker bees have developed partially functional ovaries and thus some queen pheromone.  As they smell like genuine queens to the guards, they are considered a threat to that colony, and will thus be denied entry.

How can there be guards if you've just shaken out all the bees? Or do the returning foragers take up guard duty? Or do the first lot of nurse bees do that?

If it works it works though!

The previous line gives the clue:

Laying workers aren't foragers, so will have to try and gain entry into whatever hives are within range, along with all the nurse bees.

So - the foragers will zoom back to the original box, fairly quickly - and yes, I'm sure some will take up guard duty ... but the other bees haven't been on orientation flights, so won't be zooming back to that box - they'll be trying to gain entry into other hives - the first hives they come across - hives which are established, and thus have guards already in place.

But - you raise a good point - which suggests it would make sense to arrange things so that the 'problem' hive is furthest away from where the bees are dumped.

LJ

[BeeMaster2]

When you dump the bees, mark the spot and come back later that day and take a look. You will find a ball of bees at the location. These are probably the remaining nurse bees and your laying workers. Remember, the workers do not start laying until there is no open brood left. By the time you realize that it is a laying worker hive, probably seeing capped drone cells in worker cells, most of the bees are now field bees.
Jim

[GSF]

okay, update. Just to refresh everyone; a friend of mine had a laying worker hive. We put a frame that had capped and open brood in the hive. On this frame it also had a swarm cell.

She called me yesterday, (apx 2 weeks) and said there were no laying workers or workers laying anymore. In fact she said there wasn't any eggs.

We'll let yall know one way or the other if this works out.

[GSF]

Okay, it's a no go. 3 weeks later nothing, no queen or eggs.

I'm doing the same thing and expecting different results (lol) with one of my hives.

[BeeMaster2]

GSF,
I'm in a similar situation, I moved 4 frames of bees and eggs and brood into my observation hive to let them make a queen. We watched 2 queen cells develop. I have no idea how many developed between the frames. One was walking around the hive, obviously a virgin. Then she disappeared, never made it back from her maiden flight. Yesterday I dded another frame of brood/eggs to give them another chance to make a queen. I hope this one makes it.
Jim

[Duane]

It's a cruel trick of nature - as that colony would of course be destined to perish in the wild.

I see it as different.  I see it as a colony who has no hope, (assuming no intervention from a beekeeper).  Those genes are going to be forever lost.  Except the workers start laying drones and at least part of the genes could be transferred.  From what I hear, the potential gene pool is saturated with the demised colony's genes.  So I see it as nature's last ditch effort, and fairly effective, to preserve the genes of the colony.


Regarding queen cells into an egg-laying worker colony, my first attempt at a split is still waiting.  I had moved the queen and some frames to a new box.  The old hive was supposed to raise a new queen.  Nothing.  I added more eggs.  Nothing.  Then I saw a queen cup with an egg.  Then I read that bees will indeed raise a drone larva in a queen cup.  I had seen multiple eggs (like 5 or 6 or more) before in a hive even though I saw the queen.  They soon worked out later in the season.  This time, the multiple eggs looked different.  Not sure how to describe it.  With the queen laying them, they somehow looked more "ordered" than with this hive.  Here, even though on the bottom, they seemed to be at random angles.  Not able to compare them now, not sure of this, but they look different.

After the third time of adding eggs, another hive had lost the queen and started several queen cells.  I stuck one of those capped cells in the hive.  I checked three days later and they had dismantled the cell.  Don't know if that is additional support that it doesn't work.  Now maybe the queen was about to hatch out and I need to wait a couple of weeks.  But then what, if not?  I'm seeing I'm continuing to steal brood from the hive I wanted to reproduce.  It did the best last year.  It may not survive the winter.  Like it was said, you spend all season fiddling with it.

Doing the shakeout sounds like what I need to do.  I was reading about mini-frames and might have better luck starting over instead of prolonging the agony.  One place I thought I read the laying workers were too heavy to fly?  I'm trying to decide if I should swap positions with the queen right hive and/or take this queenless hive way far away?  If the laying workers are to heavy, I wouldn't worry and keep everything nearby.  These two hives are a distance away from the other hives.  The hives are about 6 feet apart.  If I don't move the queen right hive, will the field workers find their way there?  And if I stack the box with the honey from the dumped colony on top, will the smell help them find their way there?

[GSF]

I would say the laying workers can fly. Also from my experience if there's laying workers around they will destroy the QC.

[Michael Bush]

Give them open brood every week for three weeks and everything will be resolved.  It may be they now have a virgin, in which case the open brood will supress the laying workers in the meantime.  After three weeks they are always, in my experience, starting queen cells if they are still queenless.