requeening mean hive

[CliveHive]

Hi - -

Newbee, here.  New to the forum, and new to beekeeping, so lots to learn - - - having fun doing it!

First hive started with a few bees, a little brood, and a little honey, quickly blossomed!  Now have three or four frames of capped brood, a little bit of capped honey, a little uncapped honeycomb, and several thousand bees.   

The queen was of 'unknown origin', but I expect she ran with a bad crowd for awhile.  After about 4 weeks, her daughters turned mean - - and got meaner when a violent storm passed through. 
When they chased my dog into the car, good producer or not, I decided to re-queen and after 30 or 40 phone calls, found a couple of Italian queens.  I gave one to a buddy in the same predicament, and requeened my hive on Thursday, 3/24.

Things are calming down around the hive.  I checked to make sure she was released on Monday, 3/28 - - she had.  Too many bees to find her easily and I figured the hive had seen enough trauma for awhile.  I will check for new brood in a week or so - - -

Question:  The bees seemed calmer after three days with the new queen.  Is that correct, or wishful thinking on my part?  It would seem the old-queen's live bees and brood would keep their nasty ways until they were replaced - - or at least diluted - - by the Italian Queen's offspring, but maybe the 'ok, let's just calm-down, girls' influence of the new queen is felt more immediately. 

Thoughts and comments welcome - -

[Colobee]

Many report that eliminating the "mean" queen can have an  immediately noticeable positive result.

[Michael Bush]

>Question:  The bees seemed calmer after three days with the new queen.  Is that correct, or wishful thinking on my part?

I have often seen that.  But sometimes it takes six weeks...

>  It would seem the old-queen's live bees and brood would keep their nasty ways until they were replaced - - or at least diluted - - by the Italian Queen's offspring, but maybe the 'ok, let's just calm-down, girls' influence of the new queen is felt more immediately. 

It appears that the new queen has the pheromones to keep everyone contented and the old queen did not.  I wonder if the genetic portion of the equation is how they respond to a failing queen...

[PhilK]

Interesting - we requeened for the same reason (though they weren't quite as aggressive as yours seemed) and 3 weeks later they were still on the pissy side, buzzing around head sand bumping of veils. Will continue to wait and see if they get sorted out. Maybe the queen is also a nasty thing?

[CliveHive]

Thanks for the feedback.

A curious thing - - -

When I checked for the queen release on 3/28 I was expecting (and prepared for) some of the hostility I experienced when I put her in the hive 4 days earlier.  During the previous hive opening 15 or 20 bees 'chased' me back to my back door, about 20 yards and around the corner from the hive.  So I was watching for a parade of angry bees to follow me when I left the hive - - - and - -

I had one who followed me - - casually - - at my unhurried pace.  She planted herself about 7 inches from my veil, right in line with my eyes, and maintained that position without attacking or leaving - - .  If I brushed her away, she side-stepped and returned.  I sat at a patio table, and she stayed for several minutes, as peaceful as could be - - - and what?  Curious??

No doubt common to experienced beekeepers, but it is all new (and fascinating) to me.  From reading the posts, I see these critters are full of surprises - -

[D Coates]

I've got no doubt from your description the queen was hot so requeening was smart on your part.  Some aggression can be created by other things too though.  If there's a storm coming in, if there's little food available, or if something is messing with them too much (humans included), not using smoke or using too much.  Having a nasty queen seems to exacerbate these things.

[rober]

I had 2 hives last year that were on me like an African hive. I was covered in bees. after I snuffed the 1st queen I walked thru brush for 30 minutes & never did get away from all the attackers & took a lot of stings when I came out of my suit. there were at least 1000 stingers in my gloves & sleeves. 2 weeks later when I opened the 2nd hot hive same thing. but this time there were bees inside my veil. I had not zipped up all the way-DOH!!!! coming out of a suit that is covered with angry bees was not fun. dropped the suit & got in the house & fought it out with 100 or so bees. put on my other suit & went back, snuffed the queen & installed a frame with eggs from another hive. both of these queens came from swarm cells from a gentle queen. what i'm guessing is that they mated with drones with partial african traits. a local association does a group buy of several hundred nucs from Louisiana every year. some of those hives have been really aggressive. since requeening both of these hives have bee calm as can be.

[obxbee]

CliveHive
You mentioned that the girls got more aggressive when a storm passed through.
I have to tell you but even the most gentle bees get angry off when you are messing with them and it has or is just about to storm.
I have been around numerous hives that are like Jekyl & Hyde when a storm is coming in a couple hours. On calm warm sunny days they welcome you into hive inspections with little or no smoke.
Good luck with the new queen.

[CliveHive]

Once again - - Many thanks for the feedback.  I am probably overthinking the process - - but when you are new - - - .

I am 'suiting-up' whenever I have anything to do near the hive - - - The clothesline is about 15 feet from it, and I have a small garden that needs to be weeded about 25' in the other direction - - .  I have been getting one or two 'bumps' in the veil when I get close - - - and then they will either quit, or go off and come back with 3 or four reinforcements.

I am thinking there may be some residue from the old queens bees and brood, but it is much better than it was - - - .  Thanks for the feedback on storms, as well.  I will make sure to take note of weather conditions as I chart the hive's progress - - .

Lots of bees in-and-out of the hive on this nice sunny, cool day.  Lots of yellow lumps on their legs - - .  My next hive check is scheduled for April 7 - - - sure hope I see some fresh brood - - and maybe a little honey, too!

[yantabulla]

Stupid question from me.  Do you use a smoker?

[CliveHive]

Sure.  I use a smoker when I open the hive, but not when I'm just looking, or working near the hive - - say at least 10 or 15 feet away from it - - - .  That is the right way to do it - - no??
I suit-up because I still get veil-bombed a couple of times whenever I am within 20 feet of the entrance - - .

I hadn't seen the hive after the sun went down, so I decided to grab a flashlight, and go have a look. 
There was a tight cluster about half the size of my fist slowly and peacefully milling around the entrance
hole outside the hive - - I would guess 50 or 60 bees.  Any idea what that means?  Is that 'overflow" from a hive full of bees? 
It is a cool night - - probably 75 degreesF.  Are they clustering for warmth?

[KeyLargoBees]

LOL...cool night and 75 degrees are something only we deep southerners would consider putting in the same sentence.

On my two Boomers I had a huge number of bees on the face of one hive and an honest to god beard on the other this AM pre dawn. It was a low of 76 but super high humidity. I think they come out on the board and the front of the hive to ease congestion inside and facilitate better air flow for temp/humidity regulation. I run screen bottom boards but had sticky boards to check mites in overnight so they were more closed up than normal hence the beard and population outside.

[CliveHive]

Spent a year or so in Key West when torpedoman's school was there, so there is no doubt in my mind Keys bees are more laid-back!  (They couldn't help but be!)

Thanks!  and yes, I think it had to do with temp regulation - - It got cold last night - - down around 60 - - time to get closer to the equator!
I am going to start checking the hive after the sun goes down and keeping a log.  I think my bees might be pretty good weathermen - - er- - - weather girls - -
er - - weather things - - -

[GSF]

yantabulla - that's not a stupid question. Lots of times the answer would have been "yes".

Clivehive, I saw a you tube video about a stinger barb being removed from someone's eyeball. It'll make you look at suited up in a hole different positive light.

[CliveHive]

By way of a progress report on my 'mean hive' - -

Four days after re-queening, I could approach the hive with only the occasional 'dive-bomb'.  When I did get buzzed,
the attacker was usually joined by three or four buddies to help get rid of me - - -

During the next three or four days, I was attacked by a single bee after I had been near the hive for more than 5 or 10 minutes.
Usually that was followed by two or three more. 

During the next few days, it took longer to attract attention, the bees were less aggressive, and fewer showed up to 'chase' me.

It has been 15 days since re-queening, and I can be within 3 meters of the hive - - as long as I leave a clear path to the entrance -
without being attacked.  Reading through other posts, and doing a little research, I think - - 1.  The new queen had an immediate calming influence on the hive.
2.  Aggression further declined as new guard bees were posted - - - ones that didn't have the same alarm triggers to me or my scent. 3.  As the new queen
took over the daily operations of the hive - - - producing brood, and becoming the communications nucleus,   emerging workers from the old queen were more
greatly influenced by the new queen than the genetic profile of the old queen - - -

So I am making peace with the hive.  Another couple of weeks, and I might try being around it without gloves - - - but trust is something less than 100%  :)

[CliveHive]

Nope.  Not quite yet - -

17 days since re-queening, and I really did think the hive had gotten out of its' evil ways - - -

The good news, is there was a frame and a half of wet brood, so the new queen is cranking-out bees to beat-the-band - - also lots of pollen & honey.
Hive is in high gear, and doing just fine - - - a couple mostly empty frames, and a couple more just being drawn out - -

I have noticed a lot of activity around the entrace during the last week, both foragers returning with full pollen satchels, and random 'up-and-
down, in-and-out flights, which I took to be the last of the old queens brood doing their 'orientation' flight(s). 

The bad news is the bees were still pretty nasty when I opened the hive, although they had let me near it without any problems for the previous week.
So I'm not sure if I caught them on a bad day, didn't smoke them enough, or if it is just the genetic leftovers from the old queen.  I'm hoping it is the last of
the old queen's brood, and that in another couple of weeks I'll have one of theose 'calm hives' I keep hearing about - - -

[KeyLargoBees]

Clive I just noticed where your location is....not sure if you are a member of the JP The Beeman group on Facebook but there are quite a few members on there from south Texas and several from Corpus in particular...if you wanted local help and advice it might be worth your while to join up and look for Dennis Gray...hes very experienced and based out of Corpus.

[CliveHive]

Thanks Jeff.  Will do.

In the mean time - - -

As I mentioned in my last post, the hive was pretty angry during inspection on Sunday.  Yesterday (Monday) I had two or three chasing me around maybe 20 yards from the hive, but then I got reports from a couple of neighbors - - - seems the lady over the back fence had been attacked by two, and the yard man from their nex-door neighbor got attacked and stung a couple of times by three or four - - - .
One neighbor told another neighbor, (and the report escalated to 'appears to have been attsacked by a swarm' so now I have three to deal neighbors with - - one of which is friendly and working with me - - - I have given him a 5 May date for everything bad to 'clear-out' (6 weeks after re-queen) and he is agreeable to a 'wait and see' until then. 

I have to deal with the other two today - - - and I expect more drama from those two - - .  What I don't want to do is make promises I can't keep.  I have re-queened with an Italian queen, bred in Florida, and distributed by BeeWeaver, here in Texas.  she is producing brood to beat-the-band, so I am expecting a more-or-less population turn-over pretty much on the 6-week schedule - - ie, May 5.  My concern is that I am still getting these un-provoked attacks.  Brood from the new queen (assuming she started dropping eggs as soon as she was placed in the hive) should be active in the next couple of days - - -

So  - - your suggestions on 'where am I'?  Very close to 'out of the woods'?  My alternatives are pretty drastic - - I could move the hive maybe 20' farther away from the neighbor's fence - - but I am afraid of initiating a swarm - - - and will (for sure) plead my case to the two most recent neighbors to raise concerns.  My nightmare is that I have replaced one mean queen with a second mean queen - - -
By the way - - there is no doubt my hive is causing the problems - - - I have lived here 15 years, and there has never been a problem before - - - I own this one - - and (one way or the other) have to get it fixed. 

All suggestions welcome - - -

[GSF]

Just a random thought, if you know someone who lives in the country maybe move the hive there for about a month.

[KeyLargoBees]

Yah public relations are key when keeping in a suburban environment.....I am with GSF it might be time to move em for a month to let the genetics work themselves out.