What resources and space to give 5-frame nucs

[Playapixie]

Last year was my first season with bees and I lost both of my hives (I live in Seattle.) This year I am starting with two 5-frame deep nucs (because I couldn't find medium nucs.)  All the rest of my equipment is 8-frame mediums.

I have a lot of frames of honey and drawn brood comb available to give to the new nucs, and I'm wondering what to start with and how to arrange it.  I have around three full 8 frame mediums full of just honey, and four 8 frame medium boxes of brood comb, some of which also still has some honey.   About half  of the brood comb and most of the honey frames are foundationless and I'd like to work towards all foundationless.

I know I put the 5 frame nucs in the center of the bottom deep boxes, and I have 3 wired/foundationless  deep frames for each of those brood boxes to put on the edges.  My question is, what should I put over that, if anything?  I know for 10 frame deeps you wait to add the next box until it's 80% or so drawn, but with 8-frame hive bodies, it seems that there should be room to add a second box right away. Am I right?

I was thinking of putting an 8-frame medium with 2 or 3 brood frames in the center and full honey frames on the edges over each deep brood box the day they arrive, and then probably adding boxes with a similar arrangement over those as they move up and expand, or moving honey frames up from the 1st medium and adding brood comb in its place as it expands upwards.

Am on on the right track?  Any other suggestions?

Thanks!




Dawn Bustanoby
Seattle, WA
http://www.playapixie.org

[BeeMaster2]

Dawn,
The important thing is that you do not want to give them more area to protect than they can cover. Empty frames and un drawn foundation do not need protecting but drawn comb and honey do. Put the deeps in a box with 2 mediums Supers and add medium frames around them on the top medium. Then slowly move the deeps to the outer frames and then remove them. You will end up with comb below the mediums and you can cut it off and put them in medium frames.
Slowly add your honey frames as the bee numbers grow.
Jim

[Playapixie]

Thanks Jim, that makes sense. I'm unclear if you mean for me to add empty un-drawn frames on the sides of the top medium, or should those be honey frames, or drawn comb?

So if I understand it you're saying that I shouldn't add any honey frames or brood comb that the bees can't yet cover? Is that because of robbing? I was thinking I should give them honey frames rather than feeding them syrup. Is that not necessary?

Also, is there any reason to not just go ahead and let the bottom box be a deep and use mediums over the top? I'm guessing that at some point the bees may move up on their own and I can rotate out the deep. Is it easier to to just rotate it it sooner using he method you describe? I was thinking I would just use deeps on the bottom (though conflicted about that.)

Thank you!

[BeeMaster2]

Add a frame or what they can handle and add empty or foundation frames in the outer frames. If you use foundationless frames, melt some bees wax and use a glue brush to wax the center line. It helps to get straight comb.
If the bees have too much it causes 2 problems. Not enough bees are left to do field duties and small hive beetles and wax moths will take over the hive.
If you have deeps, use them and as you said you can move them up later and then remove them.
Good luck.
Jm

[cao]

I think adding a super to your nuc right away would be to much room.  If you are wanting to go all foundationless, you could do as sawdstmakr suggests and add 3 drawn medium frames(with or w/o honey) to your nuc instead of deep frames with foundation.  This would also allow you to get back to all mediums.  I would wait to put an empty super on until bees cover at least 6 or better yet 7 frames.  It sounds like you have more than enough drawn frames.  I would probably harvest most or all of the honey.  That way you don't have to worry about moths or SHB getting them.  Around here SHB are already active and wax moths will be soon.  Any drawn frames of mine will be put on growing hives within a few weeks.   

If you give the bees to many frames than the can cover, it gives the SHB and wax moths a place to call home. 

If you want to get rid of the deep box this year than adding medium frames and rotating the deep frames out is probably the quickest way.  If you don't mind the deep box than you can remove the whole thing next spring when the bees are above in the mediums.  I have several hives that have a deep on bottom with mediums above.  Its a matter of personal preference.  Like they say the bees don't care.

I hope this helps a little.

[Playapixie]

So I'm reading everything I can find and I'm just getting more confused.  Rusty at Honeybeesuite says in one of her blog posts to go ahead and give a new nuc an entire box of honey on top if it's available right away, so that's what I was thinking I'd do (or mostly honey and a little brood comb.) But here people are saying only give them what they can cover. 

I did get a great deal on a chest freezer today on Craigslist so I now have the option of freezing extra frames until the bees are ready.  I'm just not sure what to start with.  In terms of storage of frames and equipment, I'd love to give the bees one 8-frame medium box of honey right away if it's safe to do so.


Dawn Bustanoby
Seattle, WA
http://www.playapixie.org

[cao]

Most of my advise will be on the conservative side.  So I was assuming a small to average size nuc.  They will have a hard time covering the extra space of the super.  You will be more than doubling the space with the super and the three extra frames.  It is still early in the year so the wax moth and shb have not fully recovered from winter yet.  So the added space won't be as bad as later in the summer.  I was making some nucs last summer and the population of bees in one of them got a little to low and the shb took over and slimed it.  That's something that I wouldn't wish for my worst enemy.  If you nuc is busting at the seams with bees then it should be fine with the added super. 

Either way you go the bees will be grateful having the drawn comb.  And the honey would be a bonus.  Its always preferred over sugar water.

I hope that helps a little with the confusion.

[BeeMaster2]

I agree with Cao.
Too much drawn or full comb can bee a real problem. If they have more space than they can handle, it slows their growth and sometimes kills a hive due to the bugs taking over.
Jim 

[little john]

So I'm reading everything I can find and I'm just getting more confused.

Dawn - take some consolation from knowing that confusion is par for the course in this Internet Age for anyone setting out to keep bees.  In the days before computers, a beginner simply copied an old hand at the game - so there was only ever one opinion/ one method on offer. (even if it wasn't necessarily the best ...)

The problem of varying opinions these days partly originates from people being in different locations with varying local conditions - but it's also inherent in giving advice from a distance.  Take your 5-frame nucs, for example:

all a '5-frame nuc' means is a nucleus colony currently housed on 5-frames - it says nothing about how strong or dynamic that small colony might be.  Only someone with experience looking at that nuc 'on site' is truly able to judge what steps could be taken next, if any.  In time, you'll develop the experience to make such judgements, but for now, it's wise to act with caution.  And by this, I mean for you to expand small colonies frame-wise, rather than box-wise.

It's not always desirable to increase volume by a whole box - but a 5-frame nuc can always be installed into an 8 or even a 10-frame BOX, providing that the excess space is 'dummied down', so that the nuc is still being held within a 5-frame SPACE, albeit inside a much physically larger box.

There are many ways of dummying-down - some people buy ready-made dummy frames, which are basically standard frames with a sheet of plywood or masonite fixed to each side, or something can be made along those lines.  They can be single or multiple width, and of course are re-usable.  The best place to locate them is at the sides, so as to keep the colony centred towards the warmest part of the box - then they can be removed one at a time, as the colony grows.

While you're still finding your feet, as it were, it can be really handy to have a more experienced beekeeper around during inspections, to confirm that all is well, or flag-up any potential future problems - is there anyone close to you ?  Or a Beekeeping Association of any kind ?

'best
LJ